Games 31 and 32: Denmark vs Serbia live from the Fußball Arena München ITV4 8pm AND England vs Slovenia live from the Cologne Stadium ITV1 8pm

[ceefax the cat]

7 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

at Arsenal, Saka will have White overlapping or underlapping to create space. Odegaard obviously contributes too.

At City Foden will have a Gvardiol supporting with one of their many midfielders supporting.

Walker cannot consistently do that anymore, so Saka is isolated most of the time. Trippier hasn't done it at all for Foden. 

It's true that the left side is a massive cul-de-sac. Foden's underlapping runs were the only hint of incisiveness. This is where we come back to Gordon who will simply bulldoze his way to the byline over and over again

[GunmaN1905]

7 minutes ago, Lucas said:

The tempo was far too passive and allowed Slovenia to retain their defensive shape which meant we couldn't really get through. Appreciate it's probably hard work in that heat to play at a high tempo but it was very easy for them as we kept coming inside and had very little to no wide threat at all. 

That's where coaching comes in. Mechanisms, movements, position changes to unsettle the defense and create an opening.
But England just has none of that.

The only way Southgate's team can look good is if the opposition is trying to attack, but is bad in transition.

8 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

at Arsenal, Saka will have White overlapping or underlapping to create space. Odegaard obviously contributes too.

At City Foden will have a Gvardiol supporting with one of their many midfielders supporting.

Walker cannot consistently do that anymore, so Saka is isolated most of the time. Trippier hasn't done it at all for Foden. 

Obviously can't do much in 1v2s, but still, if both Saka and Foden are 150 million players, then you'd expect them to create something out of nothing at least once or twice against individually poor team like Slovenia. Even in transition (previous matches), the team looks like they're not well-drilled and how to execute. Which should be the strongest bit of Southgate's team since he's been with them for so long.

[craigcwwe]

How can you have so much attacking talent and produce three drab performances like that?!

Literally three games from us in the groups of the same sort of performance. 

Not sure what this setup is from Southgate. Not sure if the players are knackered or just doing enough to get out of the groups and saving their energy for the business end of this competition. 

 

[WillHoward42]

13 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Saka has been our best offensive player IMO so I'm not saying drop him, but Palmer has to come in somewhere.

Maybe so, but he doesn’t come in for our best offensive player so far

[noikeee]

4 minutes ago, Bootador said:

Will never happen, but I quite like this

 

I love JJ Bull but Rice isn't a centerback. 

He's close though. Just ****ing play Bellingham next to Rice behind Foden. You could even keep the idea of Stones moving up Man City style, to midfield, which makes it a really solid rest defence 3-2 structure of Gomez-Guehi-Walker behind Rice-Stones, which in turn totally frees up Bellingham to run forward in a segundo volante kind of way. Letting England play a wide 4 in possession of Gordon-Foden-Bellingham-Saka behind Kane. Whilst remaining perfectly safe. 

But for whatever reason Gareth wants to be EVEN SAFER than that.  Against Slovenia. Whilst already qualified.

[Haguey]

Ultimately if we don't do well at this tournament (lol) then I think the decision not to take a fit proper left back has been the crucially worst one as the knock on effects have been so dire elsewhere too

[Haguey]

Maybe he thought Trippier could be his Spinazzola even though he's a very different player...

[The_jagster]

Just now, Haguey said:

Maybe he thought Trippier could be his Spinazzola even though he's a very different player...

Insigne cut inside, Spinazzola was right footed, it all makes sense

[Baptista_8]

Southgate thinks we're just not getting the breaks in front of goal 😂

[aiston]

 

 

[themadsheep2001]

Going to say it again:

Bellingham back to CM, Gordon to the left, Foden and 10. And honestly at this rate (but will never happen) Kane to the bench

[GunmaN1905]

8 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Insigne cut inside, Spinazzola was right footed, it all makes sense

All Southgate needs is for Trippier to have a career-ending injury in the next game to bring the lads together.

 

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

Everybody piling on England, and rightfully so, but they're not the only big team underperforming. France have been just as dire, and Italy was also mostly rubbish. The scary teams are all in the other bracket, and England might just somehow stumble into the Finals.

[Bootador]

That's why everyone is so mad imo.

They still may go far/all the way because the way the chips have fallen. It's very much on, and if it's off it will be very much on him for not getting a functioning team together.

[PaulHartman71]

Just sums it up really 

At no point during that game did Slovenia have any real intention to try and score or attack at all. But we still did nothing really. It’s **** poor with the talent we have in that team. 

[Synthahols_for_Girls]

We're not Creative enough, We're not positive enough 

True back then, true now 

All this slow sideways / backwards passing, so dull so garbage, nobody looking for space, nobody looking to break down the flanks, nothing happening 
I thought Allardyce ball was bad, but this is way worse 

England go gung ho attack in a game and loose 4-3 or even 4-1 I'll take, at least they gave it a go, this passionless turged s$%£ frack that I have many many better things to do with my time 

[JJ72]

Don't worry lads it's all coming together apparently.  Delusion and he wonders why there's a negative atmosphere from the fans

[Divinity]

It's entertaining to see England turn generations of the best attacking players around into the most dull team to watch decade after decade.

e: and continually misdiagnose where the problems lie

Edited June 26 by Divinity

[TalkSport]

The fact that the CM change was only one made early on, I can’t see it changing for the L16 game. Three games of this set up now, and it’ll continue IMO.

Feels Southgate is fixated on it because he believes Shaw at LB would transform it, issue being, Shaw is highly unlikely to play this tournament and we didn’t take another natural LB. 

[av3ry]

I make it a 50% chance if playing Netherlands and a 50% chance of playing the third place team out of Belgium/Romania/Slovakia/Ukraine.

 

[VamPook]

Moving Saka to leftback sounds as bad as when that Indian pundit said Gerrard's best position is rightback 

[eenie]

To be fair there are quite a few players who could be moved to left back. Left back in the changing room.

[oche balboa]

10 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Jagster beat me to it.

Oh Mark Wright...... 

[PaulHartman71]

For me the post match interviews after the game were a big concern. You can see from Southgate’s tone that he knows he’s finished and has run out of ideas. Kane’s trying to convince himself they’re going to hit form, talking about being ready to see games out in extra time or penalties if it comes to it like he knows we’re gonna struggle to see teams off in 90 minutes. Cant remember if it was Southgate or Kane but one of them said we’re playing top quality sides we can’t expect to beat them 3/4-0. Mainoo just seemed happy to be there. 

[Wiggins Top Boys]

9 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Going to say it again:

Bellingham back to CM, Gordon to the left, Foden and 10. And honestly at this rate (but will never happen) Kane to the bench

I thought Mainoo did a great job of passing and moving and moving between the lines to find space and receive the ball. better than we've seen from TAA or Gallagher in that position BUT Bellingham can do this naturally also and allows more attacking pace/creativity in the forward line. it's a no brainer

[Pukey]

33 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

For me the post match interviews after the game were a big concern. You can see from Southgate’s tone that he knows he’s finished and has run out of ideas. Kane’s trying to convince himself they’re going to hit form, talking about being ready to see games out in extra time or penalties if it comes to it like he knows we’re gonna struggle to see teams off in 90 minutes. Cant remember if it was Southgate or Kane but one of them said we’re playing top quality sides we can’t expect to beat them 3/4-0. Mainoo just seemed happy to be there. 

Tbf I don't think we can be expecting to beat these 3/4-0, but we should be expecting to win and create chances against Slovenia and we didn't at all really. And it was still somehow an improvement on the Denmark game  

[JJ72]

Slovenia are ranked 57th in the world and we created a scarcity of chances. We made them look top 10

[thefmveteran86]

Do we think we'll see Toney and/or Watkins in this tournament?

[RTHerringbone]

One thing I'd totally forgotten about was Karen Carney absolutely BELLOWING into her mic at the pitch-side section with Laura Woods 

 

 

[arenaross]

We had 20 minutes of Watkins against Denmark but I think it's pretty clear there's no plan B. 

[GunmaN1905]

[TalkSport]

Wanted a coin flip  

[PaulHartman71]

I can’t see how Kane is playing like this for Bayern and breaking Lewandowski’s scoring records there. I don’t get what he’s doing. Was at least 3-4 times where he was either putting a ball into the box himself or someone else was but he was nowhere near the box. 

Why is he doing it?  

[ham_aka_stam]

Bit of a hot-take.

The game was boring - 100%.  But we all know by now, surely, that Southgate plays the group games as low-intensity rehearsals for the knockout games against more expansive teams?

That's why he's got them playing with the ball to feet so much, being fairly static with the personnel/tactics and not necessarily making big calls early to go out and attack, because he's practicing for games where for ball retention is key, and trying to get the players playing together well.

Viewed from that lens it was OK, certainly a better overall performance than Denmark, and we were more in control than the Serbia game, which admittedly had a better result.  The passing improved massively once Mainoo came on (he's not the messiah, he's just a different player to Trent/Gallagher and likes those short quick passes rather than Trent's hollywood balls and Gallagher's suicide ones).

The fact it's taken Southgate this long to realise TAA isn't the answer to the second midfield spot is concerning (or maybe it'd work better if he actually had runners to hit...), as is the lethargy, niggly arguments between players, and the individual mistakes being made.

My biggest concern though, are the number of players we're asking to do something different to what they do for their clubs.  Players (sportspeople in general) play best when playing instinctively.  And whilst coaching something counter-instinctive is fine if you have the time to embed it (and a system around that supports it) I don't think that's the case in international management or specifically this England setup.  

1. Not giving Kane runners around him means his instinct to drop deep and play passes - a dangerous asset when used properly - is wasted, and it's counter intuitive as there's then no-one in the box
2. Telling Kane to stay up wastes his talents, and potentially leads to him dropping out of frustration anyway, getting in the 10s way.  It also makes play predictable.
3. Playing Foden on the left, whilst he can play here, he isn't playing naturally and doesn't have the players (runners) around him to make him shine, and potentially further condenses the 10 space when he naturally drifts in
4. Tripper is possibly the worst type of FB to have behind Foden too, it's working ok defensively, but he's having to play counter-instinctively to offer overlaps, where he then has no natural blueprint for what to do.  The answer is to underlap, but that weakens Foden as a "winger", and again, further compresses the centre of the pitch.
5. Bellingham looks so conflicted at 10, and since he was told to stop trying to do it all is playing like someone torn between what he wants to do and what the coach/team want him to do.  The experiment with him and Foden switching is nice, but it's not natural, so it's happening in a slow, laboured way.  He's used to playing deeper, being involved in everything, and being the guy making plays.  With Kane and Foden in the team, he can't be that guy all the time.
6. Playing TAA in CM is an experiment best left to club football / the bin.

I would bring Bellingham into CM, pull Foden inside (they both want the ball, get them where they can use it) and play Gordon on the left.   That way the only real issue is whether Kane can stay up, if not, sub him for Watkins. The Left Back is then the last issue and I think Trippier coming inside is far from the worst idea.

Hopefully Southgate's theory comes good in the next game(s) otherwise it's made me look a twit for writing this mini-defence of him and given the players and the fans a frustrating first three games for nothing.  I know we haven't been helped by the teams we've been playing as they aren't expansive, and are sitting deep to limit us.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

[Rob1981]

I would be all in on the cautious, low-risk, energy-conserving group stage if we looked more organised with the ball... see Scotland 2020 and USA 2022 for reference.

But auditioning three different CMs after the games have already started.  It really doesn't look like we know our plan this time.

I'm backing Mainoo to come out of leftfield and be the "undroppable" missing link that people didn't necessarily expect to play.  This year's Trevor Sinclair.

[eenie]

59 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

That's why he's got them playing with the ball to feet so much, being fairly static with the personnel/tactics and not necessarily making big calls early to go out and attack, because he's practicing for games where for ball retention is key, and trying to get the players playing together well.

Nae offence, but this is absolute pish  If he's trying to achieve what you claim he is, then he's not succeeding, because the players are not "playing together well" whatsoever  

[Bigwig]

16 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

But auditioning three different CMs after the games have already started.  It really doesn't look like we know our plan this time.

It’s all City’s fault for ruining Phillips. 

[GunmaN1905]

Now I can't criticize Rice, why does he have to be such a class act?

[TalkSport]

1 hour ago, ham_aka_stam said:

Bit of a hot-take.

The game was boring - 100%.  But we all know by now, surely, that Southgate plays the group games as low-intensity rehearsals for the knockout games against more expansive teams?

That's why he's got them playing with the ball to feet so much, being fairly static with the personnel/tactics and not necessarily making big calls early to go out and attack, because he's practicing for games where for ball retention is key, and trying to get the players playing together well.

Viewed from that lens it was OK, certainly a better overall performance than Denmark, and we were more in control than the Serbia game, which admittedly had a better result.  The passing improved massively once Mainoo came on (he's not the messiah, he's just a different player to Trent/Gallagher and likes those short quick passes rather than Trent's hollywood balls and Gallagher's suicide ones).

This feels a bit optimistic. Slovenia were interested in a draw only, and got that. 

We do not look like a side that’s being drilled for ball retention, because if we are, why the **** is Rice on his own, Pickford going long, Gallagher/Bellingham high and not showing, stones not stepping into midfield.

We’re not a possession based side, and as soon as we face a side that puts pressure on us, we’ll turn over that ball no problem and sit in. Counter will be our threat, in which case, you we’ll want Gordon on LW. Seeing as he’s got 5 mins in 3 games, it doesn’t suggest Southgate sees it that way.

[BigV]

28 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

because if we are, why the **** is Rice on his own, Pickford going long, Gallagher/Bellingham high and not showing, stones not stepping into midfield.

He wasnt. He literally had gallagher deeper than him yesterday and more alongside, it was infact Rice being slightly wider left whilst Bellingham was more in fodens way. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

1 hour ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Now I can't criticize Rice, why does he have to be such a class act?

Great player, great person.

[ham_aka_stam]

1 hour ago, eenie said:

Nae offence, but this is absolute pish  If he's trying to achieve what you claim he is, then he's not succeeding, because the players are not "playing together well" whatsoever  

"Imagine how bad we'd be if he didn't" is the natural counter argument.

I'm not saying it's working, but I reckon that's Southgate's logic.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[ham_aka_stam]

37 minutes ago, BigV said:

He wasnt. He literally had gallagher deeper than him yesterday and more alongside, it was infact Rice being slightly wider left whilst Bellingham was more in fodens way. 

The problem for me was that Rice and Gallagher were hiding behind the two Slovakian CFs when our CBs had the ball.

The movement was lethargic, and decisions couldn't be made quickly because players weren't immediately showing for the ball, and when they did, it was too late and the passing lane was blocked.

[Bliss Seeker]

One of the obvious issues is the complete lack of width, it's like we're only playing on 70% of the entire pitch. It's not the just left side either, Walker always came inside to pick up the ball, and I don't remember him once getting forward on the overlap to support Saka. He kept dropping into the midfield too, it's such a bizarre system, no one plays like this - for this good reason. 

Looking back that team sheet is even more baffling, what was the point of it? We had nothing to lose - Kane, Bellingham, Saka and Rice could have had a bit of rest and the others in the squad would have that added motivation to do their thing. 

It's just baffling.

 

I don't think enough's being made of the players moaning at each other either. It happened right at the beginning yesterday, and at one point Jude was complaining to the bench about something that wasn't happening behind him. It's not a harmonious group this time. 

Have to wonder how much Ben White's decision not to be called up due to his argument with Steve Holland, and Gareth's lie in the press conference about it rubbed up the players the wrong way. Maybe it stems back to then, because one thing Southgate's team has always had going for it was good morale, that's just not there anymore.  

 

Edited June 26 by Bliss Seeker

[JJ72]

45 minutes ago, Bliss Seeker said:

One of the obvious issues is the complete lack of width, it's like we're only playing on 70% of the entire pitch. It's not the just left side either, Walker always came inside to pick up the ball, and I don't remember him once getting forward on the overlap to support Saka. He kept dropping into the midfield too, it's such a bizarre system, no one plays like this - for this good reason. 

Looking back that team sheet is even more baffling, what was the point of it? We had nothing to lose - Kane, Bellingham, Saka and Rice could have had a bit of rest and the others in the squad would have that added motivation to do their thing. 

It's just baffling.

 

I don't think enough's being made of the players moaning at each other either. It happened right at the beginning yesterday, and at one point Jude was complaining to the bench about something that wasn't happening behind him. It's not a harmonious group this time. 

Have to wonder how much Ben White's decision not to be called up due to his argument with Steve Holland, and Gareth's lie in the press conference about it rubbed up the players the wrong way. Maybe it stems back to then, because one thing Southgate's team has always had going for it was good morale, that's just not there anymore.  

 

Winning always helps morale and we aren't doing that. Also, I'm sure the players aren't enjoying trying to play this system either.

Edited June 26 by JJ72

[Rob1981]

Morale is driven by more than just tactics and team selection though.

The players are further into their careers.  They start to feel that weight of expectation when they have already been to a few tournaments and fallen just short. 

Playing in a first tournament, getting to a first semi in years in 2018, getting to a first final in year in 2020... feels massive to keep breaking new ground as a group where everyone is kind of in the same place.  But now you have players that know they are expected to go there and win.  And the likes of Walker and Trippier know it is probably their last tournament.  You feel the pressure in a different way. 

Same as Eriksson's mob in 2006.  The mood in that camp in 2006 was really different to 2002-04...  even though it was the same manager and a lot of the same players.

[The_jagster]

2 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

Morale is driven by more than just tactics and team selection though.

The players are further into their careers.  They start to feel that weight of expectation when they have already been to a few tournaments and fallen just short. 

Playing in a first tournament, getting to a first semi in years in 2018, getting to a first final in year in 2020... feels massive to keep breaking new ground as a group where everyone is kind of in the same place.  But now you have players that know they are expected to go there and win.  And the likes of Walker and Trippier know it is probably their last tournament.  You feel the pressure in a different way. 

Same as Eriksson's mob in 2006.  The mood in that camp in 2006 was really different to 2002-04...  even though it was the same manager and a lot of the same players.

Sort of, but they also have the experience having done it before so shouldn't be caught out on the negative aspects of being holed up for a tournament.

The concern for me is that he's replaced Trent for an actual midfielder, then Gallagher for one of Mainoo/Wharton, and we still look bad. This doesn't look like a team which can just be tweaked a bit to be good. Maybe they are holding some effort back for the latter stages when they need it, I hope so.