FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[StevehFC]

As someone who always plays a international save as Scotland on every addition of FM. I'm really disappointed with SI removing international management. 

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, Costav said:

I believe it takes a good part.
I will expand the explanation:

The weight is the mass a player needs to "transport" when moving/running...I do believe that, if physics in the game is expressed properly, between two players with same acceleration and pace the one who weights less will be fastest.
Same thing for the height.

Unless physical attributes are completely disconnected by the body characteristics of each player...   

As far as I know weight has very little impact on the game, and that the other factors control it, but even the post by Miles said there will be a number behind the scenes for this, but it will not be visible.

2 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

My question is, can we infer from this that it actually has zero bearing on anything in the match engine? If so, great don't tell us, I don't care. But if it does have an impact and were tied into the strength attribute somehow for instance, then removing it is just another thing to add to the list of stuff that goes on under-the-hood that we have no knowledge of, which collectively add to the frustration due to the deliberate obfuscation of information for no good reason.  

See above

2 minutes ago, jcw163 said:

My original comment said:- "still no talk about whether or not keepers will be allowed to commit a foul for the first time since like 2012" so i suggest you read a bit more carefully going forward friend. Pleased to see the mods on here are as polite as ever

So a handball isn't a foul?

Just now, we88y said:

Nothing in terms of gameplay. Personally, it helps me visualise the type of player, especially with regens where there is no real life knowledge.

Height enables me to know if the players are short or tall at a glance and weight allows me to understand the physicality of the player. Without the weight information, I would need to judge between height, jumping reach and strength to get an overall feeling of their physical presence. For example, if I told you about a tall forward with great strength and incredible jumping reach attributes you wouldn't necessarily think of a player with Cristiano Ronaldo's physique but more likely more of a target forward type player whereas seeing their weight gives me additional clues to the overall picture.

Fair enough, can't argue against immersion!  

[Costav]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

Fair enough. Though height actually have an impact on the match, as a taller player wouldn't need to jump to reach a ball for instance, so I see no need for that to be removed. But I guess this was just hyperbole to make a point...

Am I wrong or SI explained that for regens there is a direct relation between height and jumping reach?

[Fat_Frank8]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

Fair enough. Though height actually have an impact on the match, as a taller player wouldn't need to jump to reach a ball for instance, so I see no need for that to be removed. But I guess this was just hyperbole to make a point...

 

You don’t think a let’s say 25 kg weight difference between two players battling for the ball would have an impact?

[we88y]

Part of me thinks the correct move would be to give a free database update to FM24 for the 24/25 season and start again with FM26 next year on an appropriate release date closer to the beginning of the season (Not nearly half way through at the end of November)

[Lord Rowell]

Absolutely nothing here that is game-breaking or brand-breaking, for me.
I think the jump to Unity was always going to be challenging - if I did have ONE criticism of SI, its that's they've maybe been a little too optimistic in their communications?
 

Re. the latest announcements:
- International Management - ok its a disappointment for some, I get that, but if it leads to a better experience for FM26 and beyond, it seems like a sensible move
- Removal of weight as a visible stat. I am curious of the reasons to this, and wish others would think and show a little more curiousity themselves. Purely my own guess is due to the toxicity of social media, particularly towards certain groups e.g. ethnic minorities, people with disabilities, LQBTQ+ community, and women. Consequence could have been a zillion screenshots on social media of specific player's weights going up and down, purely for mysogynistic reasons as part of people's own agendas. So, I think SI have made the right decision.

All that said, we've got a fantastic new whole world of play in women's football coming, and we've got the new Premier league license (this in itself would be a selling point in most releases).

No, I don't work for SI. I'm not a happy-clappy, I've been VERY critical of SI in the past. I just happen to think they're going in the right direction, for the right reasons.

One genuine question for SI staff, if you know the answer. Obviously international management isn't going to be playable, and will be background only - so will we still be able to "watch" the matches as a spectator if we want to, or is that not possible for now?

[XaW]

Just now, Costav said:

Am I wrong or SI explained that for regens there is a direct relation between height and jumping reach?

Yes and no. The height of the player impacts the probability of how high the jumping reach is. So short players will very rarely get high JR, and very tall players will often have high JR. JR is how high the top point of the head is at max, not how far they leap up with the feet.

[Costav]

Just now, XaW said:

Miles said there will be a number behind the scenes for this, but it will not be visible

And that means that has an impact on the game.
Removing weight (making weight not visible) will reduce our judgment on the physical part of player (other than having effects on immersion...)

 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

You don’t think a let’s say 25 kg weight difference between two players battling for the ball would have an impact?

Yes, but I think the strength attribute would cover it for the game. Perhaps along agility or balance. Mass isn't the only thing that impacts.

[azymin]

17 minutes ago, XaW said:

Because of the switch to unity, I imagine. So they would have spent apparently a significant amount of time to port (make sure the old code used is compatible with Unity) it over, and instead of doing that, they can just remove it and spend the same time getting the rest of game ported over and hopefully improved too.

I guess i thought they'd be rewriting the code for unity. If they're just porting it, then I'm afraid the match engine issues that were present up until now will just migrate to FM 25.

This would be very disheartening if correct.

[XaW]

Just now, Costav said:

And that means that has an impact on the game.
Removing weight (making weight not visible) will reduce our judgment on the physical part of player (other than having effects on immersion...)

 

I think other attributes will cover it, as per my last reply here.

[Craigus89]

I think we all know weight is a super sensitive topic for women, and it's easier just to not show it. Pretty simple, and only the weirdest of people would actually have an issue with its removal for that reason. I would just like to know if it has an impact on the match engine.

[McClane29]

Disappointed with the removal of international management, but it has always been part of the game with no real feeling. They just have to bring it back in FM26 in time for the World Cup and make it worth playing.

Player weights being removed is rather disappointing and a sign that the implementation of the women's game is going to hinder FM overall. I gather player ages will be next to go since it's supposed to be rude to ask a woman her age. No doubt skin-modders will be able to incorporate the weight stats back into the game in future.

Whenever I hear of delays, I always expect them to be the first of more to come with games. Hope that's not the case.

[aj6658]

This does not fill me with hope. The whole port is about better graphics and better UI.

In terms if game engine, its all mathematical equations so to get better match engine, it'll require smarter equations. My fear is that because everything else has been a struggle, the fact that 8 weeks from the original release date they have announced now they have cut things so likely that the ME team may have been reassigned to work another things 

[XaW]

Just now, azymin said:

I guess i thought they'd be rewriting the code for unity. If they're just porting it, then I'm afraid the match engine issues that were present up until now will just migrate to FM 25.

This would be very disheartening if correct.

Rewrite some and port others I would assume. I can't fathom if they were to rewrite every line of code in ever part of the game. But I don't know, it could be, but why redo the parts of the code that works well and can be ported with ease?

[forameuss]

Keep your water to hand, as I expect there's going to be a lot of salt coming out of this announcement for so many reasons.

Personally, I don't really care about when the game's out.  If they genuinely believe it's going to take longer, take longer.  I don't really care what engagements have had to be cancelled or moved around though.  I get that's probably trying to humanise it and not just leave a soundbite that people would dismiss, but...does it really matter in that much detail?  

Main negatives though...international football being dropped is bad enough on its own (I like the mode, and it being missing is a big blow personally) but it's more about what that represents.  This could go either way, but given international management hasn't been touched for a while, the fact that they're excising it completely either means 1) they had such big overhaul plans for the game that the the mode will be so much better but just isn't quite ready yet, and they can't port over the existing implementation as easily, or 2) the game is going to be an absolute mess for the first edition

EDIT: Forgot to mention the weight part.  Not trying to go pick up my copy of Daily Mail and talk about "these days".  Weight is clearly a far more sensitive subject in the women's game than it will be in the men's.  I'm not really sure why that equates to needing to hide it though.  But at the same time, I don't think I've ever looked at the value that's there currently, so in that sense, is there really any harm to it going?  Probably not.  But the main thing that strikes me is that it's one of the main things they mention on a development update, along with the removal of a fairly chunky feature.  That's...quite something.  Well, close to nothing, really, but something I guess.

But most hilarious of all was saying there would be big updates in September, then releasing that.  Top work.  I don't particularly care, but some people are going to be absolutely seething at that.

Edited September 4 by forameuss

[HUNT3R]

I think people are underestimating Strength and Balance as attributes, when being physical/challenging another player.

[CaptainSa]

20 minutes ago, we88y said:

• I doubt the women's game will have more of a game mode share than all removed features altogether, and therefore should have been the mode pushed back.
•  

This doesn't make sense, because it assumes that the removed features were used by different people.

[Costav]

8 minutes ago, XaW said:

I think other attributes will cover it, as per my last reply here.

 

9 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yes, but I think the strength attribute would cover it for the game. Perhaps along agility or balance. Mass isn't the only thing that impacts.

I see what you are trying to explain (and I really sorry that you, as moderator, are taking all the complainings about the announcement. Please be aware that there is nothing personal here), howevere I think that CETERIS PARIBUS (having all other attributes equal), the weight can determine.

I mean, immagine two players exactly the same: one is 25kg lower that the other. Who will be the faster? Who will have more stamina?

I may imagine why they wanted to remove the visibility of that value, but I believe it's a mistake.

Edited September 4 by Costav

[davehanson]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

I think people are underestimating Strength and Balance as attributes, when being physical/challenging another player.

But if weight isn't important why is being kept 'under the hood' - why is it needed at all? I am assuming it will now be like a hidden attribute?

[WelshMourinho]

Genuinely intrigued with how the development of the game is going behind the scenes. All the news we've had from development updates and there doesn't seem to be anything where they're like "this is happening and is really cool for the game". Right now it's just "this is being removed and BTW I've cancelled my holidays."

[KeegBCFC]

International management has been neglected for years anyway. A unique World Cup in Qatar was the perfect chance to actually do some imporvements to it but SI haven't bothered with it. It is not a loss to the game in its current state.

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

1 minute ago, Craigus89 said:

I think we all know weight is a super sensitive topic for women, and it's easier just to not show it. Pretty simple, and only the weirdest of people would actually have an issue with its removal for that reason. I would just like to know if it has an impact on the match engine.

Turn it off in the women’s game world then. 
 
Removing it makes no sense. Just like I wouldn’t sign a centre back that is 5’7, I wouldn’t sign one that weights 60kg either - and yes, they do exist in the game! I know not everyone will pay attention to that, but it really affects the immersion for me (and I like to see it regardless of whether it’s good or bad reasons)

Now it’ll all exist in the background where I won’t have any judgement over it 

[XaW]

Just now, Costav said:

I see what you are trying to explain (and I really sorry that you, as moderator, are taking all the complainings about the announcement. Please be aware that there is nothing personal here), howevere I think that CETERIS PARIBUS (having all other attributes equal), the weight can determine.

I mean, immagine two players exactly the same: one is 25kg lower that the other. Who will be the faster? Who will have more stamina.

I may imagine why they wanted to remove the visibility of that value, but I believe it's a mistake.

No worry, I have thick skin, I can handle it!

But yes, I see your point, I just don't think it's a big deal as many others it seems. I've never used weight as a tool for player skill ever, so it won't change much.

[jimbo22]

Talking about removing things from the game, can we remove the facegen monstrosity from the game. I think that would be something we'd all be happy about. 

[Harper]

12 minutes ago, XaW said:

Fair enough. Though height actually have an impact on the match, as a taller player wouldn't need to jump to reach a ball for instance, so I see no need for that to be removed. But I guess this was just hyperbole to make a point...

My understanding is (and could be outdated or just entirely wrong) that height doesn't actually matter, if a 5'9 and 6'3 player both have a 14 Jumping Height attribute, they both have the same apex when jumping. But height does correlate with height in that taller players more frequently have higher JH attribute. And weight has correlated with strength (heavier players more commonly have higher strength).

[saihtam]

Frankly fine with all of it. Can criticizes as much we want, but finally getting some direct feedback. SI needs to be more honest and transparent. Luckily they did not leave it very late, but still concerning development hell they are in and the release in months.

Wondering if they consider price cut because of the state it is? If they go with the same price or rise it because of new engine etc, the community backslash could be crazy if there are some concerning issues and lack of features that regular users thinks there are, buys and there is non.

Right now would be the latest to just cut the losses and announce big patch for FM24 and data DLC with some price. Would been fine with and wait for FM26. Worried about the developers and effect the game will have for fixing all issues that come from FM25 and going into new stuff with FM26.

But yeah, had tiny bit of hope to have tiny view of a trailer or a video to show new engine to push people into positive, but sadly nothing.

[azymin]

8 minutes ago, XaW said:

Rewrite some and port others I would assume. I can't fathom if they were to rewrite every line of code in ever part of the game. But I don't know, it could be, but why redo the parts of the code that works well and can be ported with ease?

I agree with that. But it seems like the issues in the game are from many different areas and aren't easy to fix. Hence pace has been broken for years. 

Regardless of what they're doing with the code, I just want a great match engine with no exploits.

[davehanson]

4 minutes ago, KeegBCFC said:

International management has been neglected for years anyway. A unique World Cup in Qatar was the perfect chance to actually do some imporvements to it but SI haven't bothered with it. It is not a loss to the game in its current state.

But it is a loss, I would guess, to the nearly 400,000 people that play or have played international management.

[HemHat]

Couldn't care less about weight being shown or not.

 

If 5% or so use international management, despite its limitations, and SI consider that to be a low amount, what % are they expecting for women's football? Aside from an initial spike I can't see it being more than that.

 

Also, having stuff about holidays being cancelled on an official release 😂 not professional, Miles mate 

[jcw163]

19 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Hmm, not sure if a handball counts as a foul. I think the op was talking about keepers making fouls on the opposition players which is quite common source of penalties in real life. 

Yeh this was obviously what I meant friend but far easier for your man to be facetious I guess. *shrug*. That's the way it goes on here, can't manage an international team, can't have a keeper bring a striker down in the box. If only they were things that happened in real football but alas.

[Costav]

3 minutes ago, davehanson said:

But it is a loss, I would guess, to the nearly 400,000 people that play or have played international management.

We also need to understand which impact will have on the game.

Are there going to be National teams, national team calls....? (I hope so!)
Are we going to see managers movement due to International Managment appointments?

Those, I guess, are the main questions to evaluate the impact of this removal...

Edited September 4 by Costav

[Lord Rowell]

On the height / weight issue re. match engine.

Someone said they wouldn't sign a 5'7" centre-back. Well I disagree, I would - because I wouldn't even look at their height, I'm only interested in things like jumping reach, heading, bravery re. aerial ability.

As I understand it, the attribute is all that matters, not the height, which is trivia in terms of the ME.
However, height matters in so far as influencing jumping reach. So, researchers will be instructed to, by default, give small players lower jumping reach like-for-like than tall players. Hence, height influences jumping reach so it indirectly affects the ME - but not the data point of height on its own.

I would assume the same for weight re. strength, and of course other attributes in play re. physical challenges, ability to change direction etc. that have been mentioned already in this thread e.g. balance, agility.
That'll be why weight will be "under the hood" as its a part of researchers decisions in judging actual ME attributes.

Edited September 4 by Lord Rowell
typos only

[Craigus89]

2 minutes ago, Harper said:

My understanding is (and could be outdated or just entirely wrong) that height doesn't actually matter, if a 5'9 and 6'3 player both have a 14 Jumping Height attribute, they both have the same apex when jumping. But height does correlate with height in that taller players more frequently have higher JH attribute. And weight has correlated with strength (heavier players more commonly have higher strength).

This is my interpretation too, and wonder if it is linked to strength in the same way that jumping reach and height are. 

As someone who queried earlier, my understanding is that two identical players aside from one being 5"7 and one being 6"4 are treated identically in the match engine if their jumping reach is the same. Just that one can jump high, the other is tall, but their reach is the same.

If the same relationship existed between weight and strength, then I have zero problem with not seeing it, as we can get the info we need elsewhere. 

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Harper said:

My understanding is (and could be outdated or just entirely wrong) that height doesn't actually matter, if a 5'9 and 6'3 player both have a 14 Jumping Height attribute, they both have the same apex when jumping. But height does correlate with height in that taller players more frequently have higher JH attribute. And weight has correlated with strength (heavier players more commonly have higher strength).

The only impacts height has, as said by SI, is that it gives the scope for the Jumping Reach. Other than that it has a small impact on weather a player _needs_ to jump or not. as a tall player can head a ball without jumping while a short player might need to jump. Something that gives the taller player a very slight advantage in some situations.

1 minute ago, azymin said:

I agree with that. But it seems like the issues in the game are from many different areas and aren't easy to fix. Hence pace has been broken for years. 

Regardless of what they're doing with the code, I just want a great match engine with no exploits.

Yeah, it seems they are behind schedule based on this post by Miles, and I think we all just want the best game. And I for one, as a tester in my real job, do appreciate someone who is willing to shuffle things to actually improve quality!  

[saihtam]

1 minute ago, davehanson said:

But it is a loss, I would guess, to the nearly 400,000 people that play or have played international management.

Definetly.

My QA brain goes havoc thinking if there is bigger effect on the  regular club management by removing part of international . Will it somehow effect international calendar, not letting players going to int games, AI managers going to National teams etc. Definitely some wild and strange bugs could come up.

[sufcdan]

FM25 should have been put aside.

Release a data update for fans of the game and id happily pay £10 for that if it means development could continue

Then release a polished FM26 at the beginning of the season rather than midway through. Then it could continue every year.

First time I can honestly say I have been underwhelmed by a future FM. 

[Craigus89]

1 minute ago, sufcdan said:

FM25 should have been put aside.

Release a data update for fans of the game and id happily pay £10 for that if it means development could continue

Then release a polished FM26 at the beginning of the season rather than midway through. Then it could continue every year.

First time I can honestly say I have been underwhelmed by a future FM. 

And pay all their bills and staff for the next year how?

They are a business, suggestions that they should shelve this release or sell it for half price etc are totally out of touch with reality.

[CaptainSa]

3 minutes ago, sufcdan said:

FM25 should have been put aside.

Asking a company whose entire revenue model is based around yearly releases to skip a year is, frankly, insane.

Edited September 4 by CaptainSa

[Costav]

3 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

However, height matters in so far as influencing jumping reach. So, researchers will be instructed to, by default, give small players lower jumping reach like-for-like than tall players. Hence, height influences jumping reach so it indirectly affects the ME - but not the data point of height on its own.

I guess you never saw playing Ivan Ramiro Cordoba! 

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

As someone who queried earlier, my understanding is that two identical players aside from one being 5"7 and one being 6"4 are treated identically in the match engine if their jumping reach is the same. Just that one can jump high, the other is tall, but their reach is the same.

IF 2 players of different heights (but the same JR) jump for a ball, they should be able to reach the same height with their head. A 6'4" player will have around 14-18 for JR (both set by researchers and as newgens) and a 5'7" player between around 4-8 for JR so they cannot ever be the same.

 

As mentioned earlier, the 6'4" might not even have to jump against the 5'7" player in some cases.

[rich10]

"In recent weeks, I have also taken steps to free up more of my time to focus solely on development and supporting the wider team. One of our core studio values is Consider the Bigger Picture, and what’s most important right now is focusing on FM25. I mentioned in June that I’d be speaking at the Unite conference in Barcelona as part of the keynote. While we will still have an FM presence there, I will not be making the trip because I need to concentrate all my efforts on directing FM25. It’s for this reason that I will also not be attending Tokyo Game Show, an event I loved last year and really helped make our first-ever release in Japan a big success. I’ve also cancelled a trip to America which I was really looking forward to but the game, and you as the players of our games, are the bigger picture."

This makes for worrying reading, if a director needs to cancel keynote speeches, miss scheduled industry shows and also cancelled their own holidays, in order to focus on development then it would be a sign that the excrement is hitting the fan in general (meeting deadlines/milestones and handling existing high impact issues). Hopefully I'm wrong, but it's a red flag.

Perhaps they anticipated this when they labelled FM24 as the most feature-complete version (or words to that effect), they knew then that the time they had to work with the Unity engine wasn't going to be enough for everything to switch over to it.

There was a comment above about FM graphics not being a reason why we buy and play the game, which might be true to a large degree. But SI appear to be looking at ways to expand into a player base that does value better graphics.

That can't have been an easy update for the Miles & the team to publish.

Edited September 4 by rich10

[sufcdan]

1 minute ago, CaptainSa said:

Asking a company whose entire revenue model is based around yearly releases to skip a year is, frankly, insane.

you obviously missed my part about parting with cash for a database update (even if it was a couple during the year) there would also be other ways to generate some form of substantial income I'm sure. They can't be running on a breakeven basis. Just my two cents anyways

[whatsupdoc]

Does the switch to unity necessarily imply a changed ME?

To what extent?

[Delicate Dave]

20 minutes ago, StevehFC said:

As someone who always plays a international save as Scotland on every addition of FM. I'm really disappointed with SI removing international management. 

I've played international a lot and always found it lacking something, I've said before FM really do need to look at how they determine energy. It's not even close to the real world. Just look at the tournament just gone 90% of the players who made it to the final had played all the country's matches and maintained a level of form. The is no way you can do that the way FM is set up, in International, you play one game and 3 days to the next one most of those who played are only 50% fit and would need to come off early if played. When playing in football this is the game you have to deal with and it's just annoying. 

[Dbuk1]

Removing weights is pointless woke. If people want to be horrible about someone online do you think they need to check the fm24 profile page? 

[Jonthedon26]

I am far from an expert on anything, but it sounds like they are really struggling timewise and it is taking a lot longer than anticipated to get the game to where it needs to be. 

If end of November turns to start of December I would just wait until after January if I was them. Or just put out an FM24 update with updated squads etc and Premier League licensing and charge £4.99 and push it back a year. Take the hit on sales for a year to get the new game right. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, Dbuk1 said:

Removing weights is pointless woke. 

Hiya Nigel, hiya pal. 

[Metjuw]

Based on what I read in the latest blog, along with the June update, I've decided that this will be the first edition of the game that I won't be purchasing since FM 2005. You've completely ruined the game by removing core features that made FM what it is today, especially the recent removal of international management. Instead of enhancing the game to make it more realistic, you've taken away what made it special. I primarily play in single-player mode, and you have no concrete data on how I engage with the game, so don't try to justify these decisions with misleading statistics.

[forameuss]

For those that are adamant that SI should just forego making any money and not release anything, I've got great news for you!  It's actually optional to buy the product each year, and if you don't, you can just wait until the next one gets released and get the same experience!  Life Hacks!

2 minutes ago, rich10 said:

"In recent weeks, I have also taken steps to free up more of my time to focus solely on development and supporting the wider team. One of our core studio values is Consider the Bigger Picture, and what’s most important right now is focusing on FM25. I mentioned in June that I’d be speaking at the Unite conference in Barcelona as part of the keynote. While we will still have an FM presence there, I will not be making the trip because I need to concentrate all my efforts on directing FM25. It’s for this reason that I will also not be attending Tokyo Game Show, an event I loved last year and really helped make our first-ever release in Japan a big success. I’ve also cancelled a trip to America which I was really looking forward to but the game, and you as the players of our games, are the bigger picture."

This makes for worrying reading, if a director needs to cancel keynote speeches, miss scheduled industry shows and also cancelled their own holidays, in order to focus on development then it would be a sign that the excrement is hitting the fan in general (meeting deadlines/milestones and handling existing high impact issues). Hopefully I'm wrong, but it's a red flag.

Perhaps they anticipated this when they labelled FM24 as the most feature-complete version (or words to that effect), they knew then that the time they had to work with the Unity engine wasn't going to be enough for everything to switch over to it.

There was a comment above about FM graphics not being a reason why we buy and play the game, which might be true to a large degree. But SI appear to be looking at ways to expand into a player base that does value better graphics.

That can't have been an easy update for the Miles & the team to pubish.

I don't think it's remotely worrying.  I think it's probably a positive for them as a development team that they're getting all hands on deck.  Miles will have expertise that a lot of the team won't have.  I don't think the whole thing needs to be aflame for them to pull that lever, just under pressure.  Which they've admitted is the case. Of course you could be right, maybe everything is on fire and everyone's in tears and it's all going to be a disaster, but I don't think the facts here alone have to point to that from my own experience of horrible projects.

The negative is that the whole paragraph comes off as really odd in such a sparse announcement.