FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[andu1]

1 hour ago, jcafcwbb said:

In my Man Utd save currently top of the Premier League and have got 10 out of 12 in the Champions League (dropped points was away to Inter) using the preset Control Possession tactic (the one that comes with the game). 

In my AFC Wimbledon save, got them promoted the Championship via the playoffs , predicted to finish 24th but have confirmed safety with 2 games to go using the Fluid Counter Attack tactic.

With both had to think through the right combination of roles and and duties but you can be successful not using Gegenpress. 

Both control possesion and fluid counter-attack use counter-press.

[warlock]

1 hour ago, andu1 said:

Both control possesion and fluid counter-attack use counter-press.

Counter-press isn't gegenpress.

[skyzekaizo]

11 minutes ago, warlock said:

Counter-press isn't gegenpress.

Isn't gegenpress when you both counter and counter press?

[warlock]

I believe gegenpress is nothing more than the German word for counter-press, but it's become much more than that in the last 10-15 years. It's an overall strategic approach to the game that involves not just counter-pressing but high lines, high tempo and relentless attempts to win back the ball. Here's FM's description:

Which makes it clear that it's a lot more than just counter-pressing.

[fc.cadoni]

At this stage, I would like to see an update:

Match Engine

- Different Zonal Pressing: The ability to manual - instruct team where, when and which zonal area to press. Isn't something new in football and after EURO was pretty clear. For example: My left side want to press more, while to right side not so often. With this, Data Hub feature will make sense.

Staff

- UEFA Coaching Licenses: It's time to search for youth coaches which hold UEFA Youth A Elite License. Since the license from UEFA competitions are there, it's HUGE oppurtunity for Sports Interactive and SEGA to reach a deal. And in scales: Coach which does not hold UEFA A the option to send him to gain Youth A will not be there.

Those two, will make me happy camper. 

[dunk105]

13 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

At this stage, I would like to see an update:

Match Engine

- Different Zonal Pressing: The ability to manual - instruct team where, when and which zonal area to press. Isn't something new in football and after EURO was pretty clear. For example: My left side want to press more, while to right side not so often. With this, Data Hub feature will make sense.

 

You can do this now. By a combination of a trigger pressing a player, player marking (players who receive off the pressed player) and PIs to press more.

I will regularly shutdown one side of the pitch where I see my opponent passing more or being a threat by pressing the DC on that side and then man marking (you can press these two but man marking is more effective) any players they are using to pass out to. The same thing can be performed on midfielders if you want to press a DLP or AP.

Granted its not the most intuitive, but it is exactly the same as pressing a zonal area and gives you a lot of control in this. Plenty of videos on YouTube as to how to set up this kind of press.

 

Edited July 27 by dunk105

[aj6658]

Haven't read everything on here but wanted to give my 2 cents 

I think FM needed to really go back and prioritise what is needed for the game. The game needs to deliver on 3 things 1. Improved graphics 2. Massively improved game engine with tactical flexibility 3. Massively improved AI squad building. That's what makes up 90% of the gameplay.  I get people are annoyed that shouts have been removed but what I am hoping is that the layers of systems that have been added over the years and have made the game bloated (looking at you social media) means that they have stripped out and focused on building a much better game engine.

FM is supremely complex so adding systems on top of systems adds a whole sweep of challenges and I can imagine trying to get shouts to work have too many impacts downstream and would take a long time get right. I rather they delivered a really good match engine this version and in FM26 starting adding stuff.

Fact things are getting cut means that resources are being deployed elsewhere and I hope that with Unity there is a more efficient development process.

[masno]

Em 27/07/2024 em 09:20, dunk105 disse:

You can do this now. By a combination of a trigger pressing a player, player marking (players who receive off the pressed player) and PIs to press more.

I will regularly shutdown one side of the pitch where I see my opponent passing more or being a threat by pressing the DC on that side and then man marking (you can press these two but man marking is more effective) any players they are using to pass out to. The same thing can be performed on midfielders if you want to press a DLP or AP.

Granted its not the most intuitive, but it is exactly the same as pressing a zonal area and gives you a lot of control in this. Plenty of videos on YouTube as to how to set up this kind of press.

 

Problem is that that is not intuitive at all. My problem with FM is that sometimes you have to do a combo of instructions to achieve a pattern, and most of times, those combos are learned through trial or error, or if you already knew it previously.

I see a lot of players getting worried about the game being dumbed down for beginners, and I approve if SI does this, because right now if you don't go and read most of the guides that we have, you probably won't be able to pull good tactics, or if you do, you won't know exactly why you did. 

[-Jef-]

2 hours ago, masno said:

Problem is that that is not intuitive at all. My problem with FM is that sometimes you have to do a combo of instructions to achieve a pattern, and most of times, those combos are learned through trial or error, or if you already knew it previously.

I see a lot of players getting worried about the game being dumbed down for beginners, and I approve if SI does this, because right now if you don't go and read most of the guides that we have, you probably won't be able to pull good tactics, or if you do, you won't know exactly why you did. 

And that's fine. There is a steep learning curve to this game. I have been playing this game for over 20 years (CM01) and even I have stupid moments and go and read stuff by Cleon, Ozil and crusaderstar. This is simply not a game where you can hop on and be the best in 2-3 months.

And you can arguably do one thing multiple ways depending on your setup, players, opponents setup and players.

To negate opponents playmaker you can do the following

• man mark him with Makelele-like player
• let him have the ball and mark out his targets
• pressure opponents defenders, deeper players to ensure playmaker doesn't receive the ball as much
• go hard on him if he has low bravery so he 'gets scared'
• you can play deep and ask him the question of where his targets are gonna score
• you can also play HIGH up with combination of immediate pressure on him

 

We lose this by having one button for such a thing. FM, despite being too easy for me for the last decade, is still one of the harder games we are left with. I am done with hand-holding in simulation type games. It is supposed to be a steep learning curve, it is supposed to be hard. Do I think SI should streamline some things (NOT dumb down)? Of course. But I actually want them to make the game, the AI harder and more intelligent but not via gimmicks.

[masno]

2 horas atrás, -Jef- disse:

And that's fine. There is a steep learning curve to this game. I have been playing this game for over 20 years (CM01) and even I have stupid moments and go and read stuff by Cleon, Ozil and crusaderstar. This is simply not a game where you can hop on and be the best in 2-3 months.

And you can arguably do one thing multiple ways depending on your setup, players, opponents setup and players.

 

Is not, and never was about being the best in 2-3 months. Is about things not being well documented, or straight up broken inside of the game. FM is supposed to be a simulation, but it have a lot of arcade things integrated in it. I remember a thread about that if you wanted low crosses to happen, or at least cutbacks, you needed a combination of instructions and roles to work. There is literally nowhere in the game that you can read it. It isn't a "steep learning curve" anymore, is straight bad game design left and right.

[Birdman10piyu]

I think I understand what SI is trying with the new FM 

If any of y'all played the mobile version of FM24, the UI has a nice simple feel. If you want more detailed info, you can get it but I really like how there isn't so much thrown at your face at once.

Even from the tactic screen, sub screen. It looks a lot more modern than what the PC version of FM does.

They want to get out of the "spreadsheet simulator" box they've been in for a long time and bring a bigger crowd to the market because we can all admit FM is a tough series to break into if you haven't played it.

I welcome the changes and look forward to it. Even as an FM vet, even I can get a bit overwhelmed by all the info thrown at you.

 

 

[busngabb]

24 minutes ago, masno said:

Is not, and never was about being the best in 2-3 months. Is about things not being well documented, or straight up broken inside of the game. FM is supposed to be a simulation, but it have a lot of arcade things integrated in it. I remember a thread about that if you wanted low crosses to happen, or at least cutbacks, you needed a combination of instructions and roles to work. There is literally nowhere in the game that you can read it. It isn't a "steep learning curve" anymore, is straight bad game design left and right.

Yup, I agree. I know a lad who is a former player and who coaches in the Championship now after retiring. He's always been a big FM player and he laughs at a lot of the tactical stuff that's posted on here. A lot of it is utter nonsense, but say it confidently enough and throw a few screenshots in that appear to backup your point and people will believe it. If the game requires you to do certain things to work how you want it to, it needs to feed it back a lot better than it currently does.

My own take on the tactical side of things is that 'horses for courses' should be a lot stronger. For example, start a career with a gegenpress tactic in a team with slow, lazy players and you should get hammered. Do the same with a  tiki-taka setup in a team with poor passing, ball control and composure and again it should be very hard. If they fixed that, added some much needed clarity to the game design as you say (The new UI should also bring it up to date and make it a lot nicer to move around than it is now) and add some much needed realism into the transfers side of the game (Installments should only be accepted where there is no other interest in the player and the selling club wants to sell or has to, or if you overpay and players shouldn't be so willing to move.) and FM25 could be great.

The big worry is the 3D match engine. Is there going to be one at all? We have seen the flow of the matches, but that seems to draw the game away from extended highlights back to the very start of the franchise.

[grade]

23 hours ago, Birdman10piyu said:

I think I understand what SI is trying with the new FM 

If any of y'all played the mobile version of FM24, the UI has a nice simple feel. If you want more detailed info, you can get it but I really like how there isn't so much thrown at your face at once.

Even from the tactic screen, sub screen. It looks a lot more modern than what the PC version of FM does.

They want to get out of the "spreadsheet simulator" box they've been in for a long time and bring a bigger crowd to the market because we can all admit FM is a tough series to break into if you haven't played it.

I welcome the changes and look forward to it. Even as an FM vet, even I can get a bit overwhelmed by all the info thrown at you.

 

 

It will always be a spreadsheet, regardless of how you presented it, it is the nature of the game.

I for one, will welcome any changes to push gameplay over the hyperfocus of reality of recent years. I'm not saying it should be more like FIFA, but SI can't forget, this is a computer game.

The balance between gameplay and reality, was once skew to one side to go hyper to the other, a right balance between the two should be achieved.

[kabuk5]

If this is the new look for FM, then I'll wait till 26, that UI looks like a cheap Mobile game.

[-Jef-]

2 hours ago, kabuk5 said:

If this is the new look for FM, then I'll wait till 26, that UI looks like a cheap Mobile game.

And you think that UI is gonna change significantly after one year it's been pretty much the same for almost 25 years?

Edited July 31 by -Jef-

[dunk105]

On 29/07/2024 at 15:57, -Jef- said:

And that's fine. There is a steep learning curve to this game. I have been playing this game for over 20 years (CM01) and even I have stupid moments and go and read stuff by Cleon, Ozil and crusaderstar. This is simply not a game where you can hop on and be the best in 2-3 months.

And you can arguably do one thing multiple ways depending on your setup, players, opponents setup and players.

To negate opponents playmaker you can do the following

• man mark him with Makelele-like player
• let him have the ball and mark out his targets
• pressure opponents defenders, deeper players to ensure playmaker doesn't receive the ball as much
• go hard on him if he has low bravery so he 'gets scared'
• you can play deep and ask him the question of where his targets are gonna score
• you can also play HIGH up with combination of immediate pressure on him

 

We lose this by having one button for such a thing. FM, despite being too easy for me for the last decade, is still one of the harder games we are left with. I am done with hand-holding in simulation type games. It is supposed to be a steep learning curve, it is supposed to be hard. Do I think SI should streamline some things (NOT dumb down)? Of course. But I actually want them to make the game, the AI harder and more intelligent but not via gimmicks.

Spot on.

Would also say many get decent results just using the built in tactics, and using them the assistant will give suggestions to hand-hold players in terms of identifying threats and what to do to nullify them. Yes, absolutely knowing how to do the above can give and edge but not knowing this kind of stuff doesn't make the game inaccessible or hard to progress in.

For me FM has always hit the mark of being both a game that is playable and fun for both casual and more sophisticated players.

[grade]

On 31/07/2024 at 16:51, kabuk5 said:

If this is the new look for FM, then I'll wait till 26, that UI looks like a cheap Mobile game.

You had a snipped-off part of a screen, which isn't a game image, a concept of what it might look like.

People need to calm down and have a little bit of patience. Reserve any opinions when we have screenshots or videos before jumping to conclusions.

[Smurf]

12 hours ago, grade said:

You had a snipped-off part of a screen, which isn't a game image, a concept of what it might look like.

People need to calm down and have a little bit of patience. Reserve any opinions when we have screenshots or videos before jumping to conclusions.

Plus - football manager was never about the best graphics - it's about the gameplay - and the interactions and being a football manager.

Sensible Soccer had terrible graphics but was the most fun game in the world to play.

 

[jayedson]

On 16/07/2024 at 16:04, -Jef- said:

This is simply not true. From the gaffer himself

 

Such a shame SI hasn't been able to simplify how shouts affect players and are instead removing them for the foreseeable.

There's obviously been a gradual shift from some of the tactical shouts from much earlier versions of the game ("get ball forward", "retain possession" etc) to introducing some morale-based ones and finally to recent years when they are all (seemingly) morale / body language related.

Previously, shouts like "get creative" would obviously mean a tactical tweak and I guess could have a knock-on effect on morale as Miles explains.

In recent years, they've obviously been using the same game mechanics to try to get similar effects but from purely body-language focused shout options.

I could see "fire-up" as maybe temporarily applying an instruction of 'get stuck in' and "calm down" doing the opposite - 'stay on feet'. "Demand more" could do something like temporarily increase tempo, but I can't see what instructions would be affected by "praise", "encourage" or "berate" unless they just simply affect body language and not tactics which is absolutely fine with me.

Why not just remove any tactical effects from shouts and have them impact body language only given Miles admits they do affect body language at the moment which are the reactions we see from players in-game.

I'm intrigued as to why they can't utilise the same game mechanics as team-talks which I presume have no tactical effect and are there to purely address the body language of players before the game, at half time and after the match.

I've always presumed there must be some form of hidden body language-related attribute scale, something like:

nervous >>> complacent
insecure >>> confident

Where -10 would be extremely nervous / insecure and +10 would be extremely complacent / confident on either of these scales for example.

If a winger goes into a game with a -8 insecure and -4 nervous in terms of where they are on any given match day, you should be able to affect this through team-talks and shouts of "encouragement" or "no pressure" to give these body language attributes a boost, maybe getting them up a bit to -6 and -2.

You can then obviously get it wrong by shouting "demand more" at an already nervous winger, making them even more nervous down the scale.

These numbers (along with multiple other factors of course) then influence how likely this winger is to dribble past his man on a given occasion in the match engine, improving or reducing the percentage likelihood of a successful dribble for example.

This must be the intention or at least I hope it is but I don't really understand why they're not working well - you can easily map each shout to an element of body language and in the exact same way as team talks, use the combination of player personality, current body language, strength of opposition etc to create the eventual result of 'delighted', 'confused', 'disinterested' etc.

Shouts not having an effect until the ball is out of play is a flaw but one I could live with so I'll be sad to see them go, hopefully they come back soon.

[WizbaII]

Why do you think shouts will be removed, jayedson? So that SI can figure out (a) whether they are even needed and (b) how to rework them properly. It doesn't make sense to leave a feature in when you know for sure that the playerbase has misconceptions about how it actually works or if it doesn't work properly or as intended. You have made the mistake of assuming that progress can be made with no time passing by.

[jayedson]

3 minutes ago, WizbaII said:

Why do you think shouts will be removed, jayedson? So that SI can figure out (a) whether they are even needed and (b) how to rework them properly. It doesn't make sense to leave a feature in when you know for sure that the playerbase has misconceptions about how it actually works or if it doesn't work properly or as intended. You have made the mistake of assuming that progress can be made with no time passing by.

Plenty of time has passed by for this progress to be made - many years actually, as Miles says: Shouts have been in the series for many years and, to be frank, I’ve never been happy with them.

On the subject of if shouts are needed, I think so. Alongside tactical acumen, that often-used phrase of being a 'morale manager' is an important one in the game and I think being able to give a player a confidence boost or a verbal kick up the backside or various things in-between from the touchline seems like a useful game feature where us as managers can be rewarded or punished with a sensible or inappropriate choice in-game. It also adds to match day immersion for me.

If shouts currently affect both body language and tactical instructions, it doesn't seem like a huge leap to remove their effect on tactical instruction (which they shouldn't do anyway and is a leftover element of previous tactical related shouts) and have them purely affect body language, which they already do. So not redeveloping any game mechanics, but removing one element of it. Obviously I'm oversimplifying what is probably a complex element to fix, otherwise I'm sure it would have been addressed by now.

But I'm not 100% happy with the reasoning behind their removal - A “shout” should happen instantly, but they only came into effect after the ball had gone out of play. It also wasn’t clear to players how long the shout lasted for. This can be solved with a simple tooltip no? "Shouts will take effect for 10 minutes after a break in play" (or something equivalent).

I think my underlying concern is more around the implication that perhaps a shift in body language isn't having the effect it should on game performance. In terms of mechanics or 'math' - the effect of a shout on body language should be fairly straight-forward and already exists in the game in the form of team-talks, plus in the form of player interactions to affect morale, praising a player for their form for example and seeing a boost in morale. The complex part in the match engine probably comes from how this change in body language should affect the player or team performance and alter the match outcome.

If this is the tricky part then team-talks would probably be redundant too, but I appreciate I'm speculating around the game mechanics here.

I know they wouldn't make this decision lightly, I guess I'm just disappointed as it's a feature I use and like regardless of potential flaws around timing and duration when they're applied.

[grade]

10 hours ago, Smurf said:

Plus - football manager was never about the best graphics - it's about the gameplay - and the interactions and being a football manager.

Sensible Soccer had terrible graphics but was the most fun game in the world to play.

 

For 94 the game, actually, looked pretty good. Not amazing, but good.

Compared now... well it is better than we currently have in FM...

Edited August 2 by grade

[WizbaII]

1 hour ago, jayedson said:

This can be solved with a simple tooltip no? "Shouts will take effect for 10 minutes after a break in play" (or something equivalent).

Sometimes you need to let decent ideas pass so that you can arrive at better ideas. That process takes time, and as you pointed out, it may even take years.

I promise you there is not a single thing in your post that the devs haven't already considered. You don't know how things work under the hood, so you have the luxury of sitting there giving simple solutions that won't actually work. You think it's a simple fix but it's not.

If they do a revamp of shouts and it is not good, then I will be critical. But I will not be critical of anyone for removing a feature because they are committed to making the best product possible.

[jayedson]

13 minutes ago, WizbaII said:

Sometimes you need to let decent ideas pass so that you can arrive at better ideas. That process takes time, and as you pointed out, it may even take years.

I promise you there is not a single thing in your post that the devs haven't already considered. You don't know how things work under the hood, so you have the luxury of sitting there giving simple solutions that won't actually work. You think it's a simple fix but it's not.

If they do a revamp of shouts and it is not good, then I will be critical. But I will not be critical of anyone for removing a feature because they are committed to making the best product possible.

I agree I've definitely oversimplified a possible fix but only going off how Miles himself described how it currently works. 

"they can affect body language. And that is shown on screen as happening relatively quickly - but it has no effect on the match engine itself until the ball goes out of play.
In the actual match themselves, they affect instructions - team and/or player." 

I'll leave it to them to fix the feature as they see fit but I'd hope that shouts have zero effect on tactical instruction and instead they merely adjust a player's body language which will subsequently affect how the rest of the game plays out. Tactical changes can always be made alongside to influence the game that way. 

We may differ in opinion on if shouts are needed but I'm keen for them to be back in the game as soon as possible as one of the well known factors of being a good man manager is knowing who would respond best to the equivalent of an 'arm around the shoulder' or a 'kick up the backside' (dependent on their personality). This concept also transcends to verbal options pitchside and for me, constitutes a vital part of a football manager simulation and a clear and obvious feature where our choice as a manager can either benefit or hinder the chance of our team getting a result. 

Anyone not fussed about changing a player's body language during a game and preferring to purely adjust tactics can ignore the feature. 

[Smurf]

9 hours ago, jayedson said:

I agree I've definitely oversimplified a possible fix but only going off how Miles himself described how it currently works. 

"they can affect body language. And that is shown on screen as happening relatively quickly - but it has no effect on the match engine itself until the ball goes out of play.
In the actual match themselves, they affect instructions - team and/or player." 

I'll leave it to them to fix the feature as they see fit but I'd hope that shouts have zero effect on tactical instruction and instead they merely adjust a player's body language which will subsequently affect how the rest of the game plays out. Tactical changes can always be made alongside to influence the game that way. 

We may differ in opinion on if shouts are needed but I'm keen for them to be back in the game as soon as possible as one of the well known factors of being a good man manager is knowing who would respond best to the equivalent of an 'arm around the shoulder' or a 'kick up the backside' (dependent on their personality). This concept also transcends to verbal options pitchside and for me, constitutes a vital part of a football manager simulation and a clear and obvious feature where our choice as a manager can either benefit or hinder the chance of our team getting a result. 

Anyone not fussed about changing a player's body language during a game and preferring to purely adjust tactics can ignore the feature. 

How can they take out shouts and leave in press conferences?
I want to manage the team, the name of the game. 
It's not 'Press Conference Manager' 

[andu1]

But football managers have to go to press conferences and be asked the same questions over and over again...

[santy001]

Press conferences have, for several years, been at the point you can hand them off to a staff member and not bother. In my network game I play the rules are set so that the managers cannot do press conferences (because they take forever) and the lowest points total either of us has won the title with in 19 seasons was 101.

To me the shouts removal isn't any deeper than it doesn't work as SI want. To make the changes to the ME to allow for instant reflection of changes is probably something SI have had on the agenda for years. There have been improvements in the past to the time for tactical changes to take effect. Because once you make a shout you can go into the tactics screen and "cancel changes" it gives me the impression that shouts were implemented as part of the tactical system. 

I might have posted this point before, but the change to Unity likely made sense as the point for removal because rebuilding/implementing a system as a developer you feel is functioning in a way you don't want is a waste of time. Before it was in the game and while not where they wanted was probably more effort than it warranted to remove (rather than maintain/tweak from year to year) if the existing systems weren't in place yet for a new system.

There will undoubtedly be a whole host of features that are waiting on the development of a core technical aspect that SI cannot necessarily put a timeline on because it's probably hard to predict when the devs can actually produce such a system in the game. In other instances you're either waiting on a substantive enough increase in processing power across the playerbase and others probably just waiting on someone to develop a core technology in the first place. 

[Smurf]

3 hours ago, andu1 said:

But football managers have to go to press conferences and be asked the same questions over and over again...

I'm all for recreating a Football Manager in a game. Games are supposed to be fun. 

Yes press conferences are part of the managers job - and they aren't removing that are they? 
They are removing the part of the game that is actually required of a football manager - shouts - being able to issue instructions mid-game via a few shortcuts. 

It should be improved on - not removed cos they can't figure it out and it's confusing for some people. 

It's unfathomable to consider trying to manage a match and not being able to communicate with the players on the pitch.

[jcafcwbb]

6 hours ago, Smurf said:

How can they take out shouts and leave in press conferences?
I want to manage the team, the name of the game. 
It's not 'Press Conference Manager' 

If you are a good manager then the team will know what to do in given situations. If a team takes the lead they know what they are supposed to do. If they are losing then there should be a trained response. I think we need to incorporate match plans in with the tactics screens to include these.

In real life managers use shouts for two things - one is tactical which we can still address through the tactics screens. Even telling them to be more compact or push up can be done from there.

The second is to berate a player or tell the team to have more energy or ask them to focus etc. That is the only thing we are losing. I would also wonder if these shouts have any effect in real life. Telling a player to sit deeper and make forwards runs may get listened to  (and this can be shouted in the tactics screen) but will a team really respond to the demand more shout in real life? Will that fix tactical errors? Yes, some managers like to do this and others don't. But does it actually have any effect on the game in real life. Did Moyes "demanding more" of his West Ham team when they were playing badly actually change things?

I think there needs to be a rational bit of thinking of what some of those shouts were meant to do and how effective they actually are in real life. And remember a lot of the touchline shouts would be administered from the tactics screen. You can ask the team to step up more, drop deeper, get stuck in, stay on your feet, timewaste, play for free-kicks, go direct, pass quicker or slower etc.

Edited August 3 by jcafcwbb

[Smurf]

1 minute ago, jcafcwbb said:

If you are a good manager then the team will know what to do in given situations. If a team takes the lead they know what they are supposed to do. If they are losing then there should be a trained response. I think we need to incorporate match plans in with the tactics screens to include these.

In real life managers use shouts for two things - one is tactical which we can still address through the tactics screens. Even telling them to be more compact or push up can be done from there.

The second is to berate a player or tell the team to have more energy or ask them to focus etc. That is the only thing we are losing. I would also wonder if these shouts have any effect in real life. Telling a player to sit deeper and make forwards runs may get listened to  (and this can be shouted in the tactics screen) but will a team really respond to the demand more shout in real life? Will that fix tactical errors? Yes, some managers like to do this and others don't. But does it actually have any effect on the game in real life. Did Moyes "demanding more" of his West Ham team when they were playing badly actually change things?

I think there needs to be a rational but of thinking of what some of those shouts were meant to do and how effective they actually are in real life. And remember a lot of the touchline shouts would be administered from the tactics screen. You can ask the team to step up more, drop deeper, get stuck in, stay on your feet, timewaste, play for free-kicks, go direct, pass quicker or slower etc.

There's a reason why managers do it in real life - because it makes a difference.

 

 

[jcafcwbb]

20 minutes ago, Smurf said:

There's a reason why managers do it in real life - because it makes a difference.

 

 

This is where I disagree with you. I think that tactical changes make a difference but the non-tactical shouts do not. But I know you have a wealth of evidence to show where studies have shown it does so I await this.

 

[jcafcwbb]

An example of this is Antonio Conte. He is a very demonstrative manager on the touchlines. He won the title with Inter and Chelsea but his touchline shouts did nothing to improve Tottenham and make them a cohesive, consistent unit. It is almost as if the quality of squad and tactics is more important than telling a player to buck his ideas up.

I know it is a common fallacy that the manager having a rant on the touchline changes things when in reality it doesn't. Changing from a 4-4-2 to a 4-5-1 had a bigger effect. Substituting a failing player does.

[GIMN]

You can only shout once every 10 minutes (per player).  It is very clear that you aren't doing the moment-to-moment shouting of an Antonio Conte.  Now you can take two paths here.  Imagine that those moment-to-moment interactions happen, but you have no control over them and they make little impact.  Or believe that they don't happen.  Removing shouts changes neither of these situations.

[XaW]

12 hours ago, Smurf said:

How can they take out shouts and leave in press conferences?
I want to manage the team, the name of the game. 
It's not 'Press Conference Manager' 

I've posted about how I think Press Conferences should be done before, but the core of my idea is to make every press conference about 1-2 questions max, and only contextual questions. Just let the rest of the default questions be implied. I think that would be a good balance between realism and fun.

 

[Smurf]

8 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

This is where I disagree with you. I think that tactical changes make a difference but the non-tactical shouts do not. But I know you have a wealth of evidence to show where studies have shown it does so I await this.

 

Hard to quantify.

But communication happens. It's core.

[jayedson]

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

Hard to quantify.

But communication happens. It's core.

Exactly, human beings respond or react (internally) to all forms of communication. If a real life player had 3 alternate realities / career paths with the only difference between them being in one reality their manager encourages from the touchline, in another he berates from the touchline and in the last does nothing, he'd have a different experience in each alternate reality, or at least enough recognisable variation in a career trajectory, less so at elite level but much more so at lower levels of the game. Obviously a manager wouldn't 'always' encourage or berate but I'm illustrating the point that touchline shouts (or physical reaction - clap / head in hands etc) definitely impact players state of mind during a game, however minimally that is. 

If I played and made a lung bursting run from wing back followed by a shot over the bar, on my way back to my position if I glanced at my manager and he was applauding encouragement, I'd feel a positive reaction. If he was flailing his arms around in a disappointed fashion, I'd probably feel annoyed as I'd felt I impacted the game in a positive way. If they weren't doing anything, I'd wonder why am I bothering. My state of mind would be affected any which way. 

Also - I like them in the game as they represent an opportunity to bring some gamified logic and strategy to the experience which is what games are. 

Similar to how if you praise a player for training and if they are extremely professional they can sometimes get annoyed with you? It's because they are professional and know it's expected of them, they don't need praise. Whereas an ambitious or balanced player would respond really well to praise for their training rating. 

Choosing the right option at the right time is a big part of strategy games, so it's a shame it's being removed but obviously there is work to be done to get it right.

I disagree with the view they are pointless and redundant, why should player's body language even be visible if we can't do anything in the game to change it. Team talks sure, and if that's the case, touchline shouts as well as they should follow the same principle of influencing body language, for better or for worse. 

I'll miss that glow of green faces when I click encourage 20 minutes into a game where we're favourites and haven't scored yet. 

Yeah it became formulaic but only once you got used to what works when, which is what part of figuring out strategy games is all about. 

[jayedson]

10 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

This is where I disagree with you. I think that tactical changes make a difference but the non-tactical shouts do not. But I know you have a wealth of evidence to show where studies have shown it does so I await this.

 

The fact remains, it is part of real football - some managers are very vocal on the sidelines, some very expressive and reactive (clapping, flailing arms, head in hands etc) and some just sit in the dugout motionless for 90 minutes. 

We as managers in FM should be able to represent ourselves in the same way, regardless of the perceived effect (of which there is by the way, and the evidence you require can be found in countless anthropological studies, it's human nature). 

Your basis for the redundancy of shouts is founded on the assumption they would always make sense. What if there was a random real life manager who decided to berate his team every time they scored? Or praise them when they conceded? Would that still have the zero impact you imply? No, they would most likely be "confused by the feedback" no? And eventually they'd complain and want to leave to play for a much more sensible manager. Of course that would never happen, but a manager would also never play his star striker in goal and his goalkeeper up front - but FM let's us do this doesn't it? Because it's a managerial choice, it's an option and we're rewarded for making the right, sensible ones. 

Shouts are in no way as impactful as formation, tactics, squad building etc, but to me they represent an element of real football management, plus an extra opportunity to be a man manager on match day, choosing who to encourage and who to demand more of, based on player personality, current body language and the game situation. 

The decisions we make in-game should take these nuances into account and be rewarded or punished based on how appropriate or inappropriate our choice was, obviously not as much as a tactical decision on whether to focus down the middle or down the flanks against a 5 man defence, but it should still have some impact on the game or a couple of players in it at least. 

[NineCloudNine]

13 hours ago, XaW said:

I've posted about how I think Press Conferences should be done before, but the core of my idea is to make every press conference about 1-2 questions max, and only contextual questions. Just let the rest of the default questions be implied. I think that would be a good balance between realism and fun.

 

Just as an off-topic aside, this (1-2 questions per press conference) is easily done in the pre-game editor. Takes less than a minute per competition.

[XaW]

3 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Just as an off-topic aside, this (1-2 questions per press conference) is easily done in the pre-game editor. Takes less than a minute per competition.

Yeah, I know, but the questions are the same ones as anywhere else. But yes, having only a few every time is better than 20 every time.

I prefer doing the press conferences myself, since I feel the assistant makes some promises or suggestions I really think it stepping over their responsibility. Things like willingness to sell and the like. And I keep a strict order of business at my club, and I'd fire the assistant if he tried to go over my head in a real life situation  

[-Jef-]

You lot know you can end the press conference before all the questions are asked? AFter like 3 questions you can skip

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

You lot know you can end the press conference before all the questions are asked? AFter like 3 questions you can skip

You can after about half, so I've had press conferences where I couldn't end if before after 10 questions....

[fc.cadoni]

On 27/07/2024 at 15:20, dunk105 said:

You can do this now. By a combination of a trigger pressing a player, player marking (players who receive off the pressed player) and PIs to press more.

I will regularly shutdown one side of the pitch where I see my opponent passing more or being a threat by pressing the DC on that side and then man marking (you can press these two but man marking is more effective) any players they are using to pass out to. The same thing can be performed on midfielders if you want to press a DLP or AP.

Granted its not the most intuitive, but it is exactly the same as pressing a zonal area and gives you a lot of control in this. Plenty of videos on YouTube as to how to set up this kind of press.

 

Not 100% correct that you can do it properly under current mechanism.

If you set the team instruction (the general team behaviour) Trigger Press to maximum, the AMRL when you go to Player Instructions - you can't edit them.

For example:

Team Instruction: Trigger Press - Much More Often (max)

Player Instruction:

So, my AML position will behave with Less Often from general one behaviour.

In order to do it properly what I am describe is to bring down the general behaviour to middle setting and then play with PI; but you lose the general behaviour.

Since we have already a map with zones in game (via Analysis):

Instead of going to each player instruction (before the game and during the game) to play the pressing game as you want (and quickly adjustments), would be nice if we have a simpler way.

[WizbaII]

I'm not here to say that shouts are stupid. But I am here to say that I trust SI's feedback more than anyone else's feedback.

I see people whining,  "If you are taking shouts away, why not take away press conferences too?"

• SI isn't saying that shouts are a bad feature, they're saying that the shouts aren't working as intended. Why is that so hard to understand?

"Well, if shouts are not working as intended, why don't SI fix them?"

• Because game development is actually pretty hard. SI have spent the last few years working on some major projects, and they cannot address every single issue all at the same time. Again, that shouldn't be hard to understand.

Edited August 4 by WizbaII

[forameuss]

3 hours ago, WizbaII said:

I'm not here to say that shouts are stupid. But I am here to say that I trust SI's feedback more than anyone else's feedback.

With these kinds of people, I wouldn't believe them that it was raining when I was being washed down the street.

Ultimately none of it matters.  Whether removing shouts is justified or not (and I'd probably agree on trusting SI's view more than anyone else's, they have a far fuller picture), they are being removed.  Any ignorant (because that's what everyone here is on this subject until they have access under the hood) views on what should be happening are just hot, pointless air

[jayedson]

17 hours ago, WizbaII said:

I'm not here to say that shouts are stupid. But I am here to say that I trust SI's feedback more than anyone else's feedback.

I see people whining,  "If you are taking shouts away, why not take away press conferences too?"

• SI isn't saying that shouts are a bad feature, they're saying that the shouts aren't working as intended. Why is that so hard to understand?

"Well, if shouts are not working as intended, why don't SI fix them?"

• Because game development is actually pretty hard. SI have spent the last few years working on some major projects, and they cannot address every single issue all at the same time. Again, that shouldn't be hard to understand.

I've come to terms with SI's decision to remove the feature until they can implement it correctly, I was just really surprised when Miles described how they worked on X - with regards to the shouts resulting in tactical changes which could then have a knock-on effect on morale.

I presumed they purely changed player body language as this 'reaction' was almost instant when you make a shout (smiley faces adjusting and text descriptions like 'delighted', 'disinterested', 'confused by' the feedback etc), and I was also wondering what tactical instruction 'encourage' or 'berate' would change as an example, as there is nothing that comes to mind that could be associated with this.

I also realise now it's probably dependent on legacy functionality when the shouts were more tactical and less body language-focused, so will take time for them to reconfigure this.

My recent comments on the issue are more about how I think they are relevant, useful and also enjoyable to me, and I don't think they can be proven to be redundant as some on here say.

[jcafcwbb]

I play the game on my PS5 so cannot use other skins but I have heard the Mustermann skin is pretty good.

Couldn't they licence his skin in the game (and maybe a couple of other of the modded skins?)

Would Mustermann be agreeable to that?

[forameuss]

3 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

I play the game on my PS5 so cannot use other skins but I have heard the Mustermann skin is pretty good.

Couldn't they licence his skin in the game (and maybe a couple of other of the modded skins?)

Would Mustermann be agreeable to that?

If they wanted to add elements that appeared in external skins, they would add them to their own skin.  Granted you don't have the option on consoles, but they're happy to open modding up and let people do what they like with the game, there's nothing really to gain from what you're suggesting.

[WizbaII]

17 hours ago, jayedson said:

My recent comments on the issue are more about how I think they are relevant, useful and also enjoyable to me, and I don't think they can be proven to be redundant as some on here say.

Although they are not crucial to my enjoyment of FM, I do feel an allure to the shouts as well. If they do come back in a way where it is more clear exactly how it works and what it might do or not do, then I will be happy, too. For example, if my player is reacting to my shout based on their match rating and not based on the play that just happened 15 seconds ago (or vice versa), that is the kind of information I would like to know before I start Shouting away.

[El Payaso]

I don't know if we are supposed to write about my wishes but anyway. 

Along with the match engine being less set pieces dependent, my main wish would be a more competitive and sophisticated AI. 

The biggest issues are with squad rotation and talented youngster development. As the AI lacks on this, it becomes too easy for human players to pick up AI teams' rotation and backup options as well as talented youngsters too easily as they are not valued or played by the AI. 

For example Real Madrid's Fran García featured in 25 La Liga games last season but on FM Real Madrid don't play him at all and he can be picked up with peanuts even in January and he is a really good option for practically any team in the game. 

[-Jef-]

6 hours ago, El Payaso said:

The biggest issues are with squad rotation and talented youngster development. As the AI lacks on this, it becomes too easy for human players to pick up AI teams' rotation and backup options as well as talented youngsters too easily as they are not valued or played by the AI. 

 

If the rest of the game is status quo but they change these two things to function properly (proper rotations and development but also that AI makes mistakes if the attributes are low) I would honestly pay 100 euros for the game.