The Final: Spain vs England live from the Olympiastadion, Berlin. BBC1 AND ITV1. Sunday 8pm

[JD nawrat]

Pickford is one of England's biggest problems imo. Dunno how often I see him launch it to absolutely nobody, except for maybe an opposition player. Never tries to play short, unless he's rolling it to someone. England have one of the best ball playing defenders in the world in Stones, and instead of trying to use him and Rice to link the midfield and defence, Pickford clatters it 70 yards and gives the ball away It's ridiculous.

[Citizen Sandman]

won my bet so that was nice, just a clear eye opener that these other guys are levels above - particularly Ruiz and Rodri

[Barry Cartman]

4 minutes ago, JD nawrat said:

England have one of the best ball playing defenders in the world in Stones, and instead of trying to use him and Rice to link the midfield and defence, Pickford clatters it 70 yards and gives the ball away It's ridiculous.

Stones and Rice were dire in this tournament, I'm all for Pickford bashing for going long, but those 2 offered nothing throughout in terms of getting the ball forward 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Stones and Rice were dire in this tournament, I'm all for Pickford bashing for going long, but those 2 offered nothing throughout in terms of getting the ball forward 

Has Stones lost some pace? Him and Walker defending that right hand side was painful viewing at times.

[Barry Cartman]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Has Stones lost some pace? Him and Walker defending that right hand side was painful viewing at times.

I know its the easy excuse to say, he looks injured, I already see people saying that about Kane which seems silly as injury doesn't make him drop into left back, but Stones hasn't played much this season and just didn't look like he was moving at all like he would for City 

[TalkSport]

I thought last two games, Stones was back to his normal self, at worse just below. Could tell first 4 games he was rusty as anything, but he was up for the physical battle against Weghorst and kept him quiet and last night, was largely on it again. 

The goals conceded, he couldn't do anything about. First one, great first time flick by Carajval which took Shaw out of the play. Meant Guehi had to go to Yamal, Stones then cover Morata run, Walker same for Olmo and Williams is then unmarked. Second goal, played through middle, flicked out wide where first time cross is great as it takes first defender out and attacker gets ahead of Guehi.

Looking at both goal, it really is a bit on Saka for it's his man in those moments. He can see the picture for both, and first one just lets Williams go, second one, same for Cucarella. He can't do anything about side being played through middle, but those other bits are on him.

Looking at how both halves started are polarising. We start off first half, going straight back to Pickford who kicks long out of play for goal kick. Spain, retain possesion, clip it long one part but with intention to Morata to pick up 2nd ball, and from there go onto keep hold of ball and score.

[JD nawrat]

41 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Stones and Rice were dire in this tournament, I'm all for Pickford bashing for going long, but those 2 offered nothing throughout in terms of getting the ball forward 

Is that on them, though? I feel like most managers would utilise them and their strengths much better. They did look poor throughout most of the tournament, but then so did just about every English player... nobody was played to their strengths at all. 

[mrmeee17]

Rice is not a playmaking 6, the sooner we stop thinking he will play like Rodri the better.

Whether Wharton is the answer or whether it's someone else, it means Rice, Bellingham, Foden and Mainoo are competing for the 2 midfield positions ahead of the 6 if we want to play a proper system with players in their proper positions. There is going to people's favorites out of the XI and some are not going to like it.

[Citizen Sandman]

a world class CDM is something England have needed for quite sometime and IMO the difference all the time

[Bootador]

Rice is a world class DM in the defensive aspects, but just can't progress the ball.

The number of times Foden has to drop deep into midfield to help out with moving the ball upfield is a testament to how bad it was this tournament.

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Bootador said:

Rice is a world class DM in the defensive aspects, but just can't progress the ball.

The number of times Foden has to drop deep into midfield to help out with moving the ball upfield is a testament to how bad it was this tournament.

Which is why he should have been partnered with Bellingham, who is brilliant at progressing the ball with both passes and dribbling. 

[Citizen Sandman]

11 minutes ago, Bootador said:

Rice is a world class DM in the defensive aspects, but just can't progress the ball.

The number of times Foden has to drop deep into midfield to help out with moving the ball upfield is a testament to how bad it was this tournament.

when he was outmuscled by simons!

joking aside i meant, pirlo, kroos, rodri - yes england need this style of player

[TM]

18 minutes ago, Citizen Sandman said:

when he was outmuscled by simons!

joking aside i meant, pirlo, kroos, rodri - yes england need this style of player

they have for years, I mentioned in 2012, Pirlo ran the game against England in the Euros

I thought maybe Wilshere was going to be it around that time but it wasn't to be, he had a bit of a Xavi/Iniesta sort of style to him

[Citizen Sandman]

Carrick was as close to what is required - what Hoddle before that!

[Citizen Sandman]

but anytime you need cooling down or turning it up, this player does it for you. 

[eenie]

8 minutes ago, TM said:

they have for years, I mentioned in 2012, Pirlo ran the game against England in the Euros

I thought maybe Wilshere was going to be it around that time but it wasn't to be, he had a bit of a Xavi/Iniesta sort of style to him

Wilshere was, iirc, much more of an Iniesta than a Xavi - he could carry the ball very nicely but didn't really have the range of passing. Was very tidy with the ball but not the sort to ping it about all over the place, as I remember it.

[GunmaN1905]

56 minutes ago, Citizen Sandman said:

when he was outmuscled by simons!

joking aside i meant, pirlo, kroos, rodri - yes england need this style of player

Then England's problem is that they don't move any midfield playmakers back.

Pirlo, Xavi, Modrić, Kroos, Alcantara, Rakitić, Jorginho, Brozović, Calanoglu all started as #8s or even #10s and moved down to #6 role eventually.

You identify a highly technical midfielder who's good at receiving the ball deep and progressing it without taking too many risks and you turn him develop him into a deep playmaker.

Issue being that needs to happen on club level, not enough NT games to make it work.

TAA has some attributes, but is a long way off if he's to play as a midfielder. Could do it, but would take at least a couple of seasons for him to get to top level as a midfield playmaker.

Edited July 15 by GunmaN1905

[Citizen Sandman]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

TAA has some attributes, but is a long way off if he's to play as a midfielder. Could do it, but would take at least a couple of seasons for him to get to top level as a midfield playmaker.

no never, he doesn't have the guile to receive on the turn, the ability to hold off like Rodri etc can - he doesn't even have the nous to get it off CB and go RB, then off RB to fizz to LB. 

he'd just try a glory switch alot - he doesn't have the natural mental and physical attributes.

In all fairness Bellingham is closest to it, think it was him with the arrow ball to watkins who couldn't control - direct through the line. he also has the body strength to roll and protect.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Citizen Sandman said:

no never, he doesn't have the guile to receive on the turn, the ability to hold off like Rodri etc can - he doesn't even have the nous to get it off CB and go RB, then off RB to fizz to LB. 

he'd just try a glory switch alot - he doesn't have the natural mental and physical attributes.

Right now he has none of that, but he's a highly intelligent player who could get there with enough repetitions.
But Liverpool isn't a club that can sacrifice results for that kind of development.

Quote

In all fairness Bellingham is closest to it, think it was him with the arrow ball to watkins who couldn't control - direct through the line. he also has the body strength to roll and protect.

He's probably going back to #8 role with Mbappe joining Real and then #10 experiment becomes a thing of the past.

[Citizen Sandman]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Right now he has none of that, but he's a highly intelligent player who could get there with enough repetitions.
But Liverpool isn't a club that can sacrifice results for that kind of development.

not a ****ing chance imo but this is all we have, assholes and opinions

[themadsheep2001]

I'm going to keep saying it until it manifests itself properly, the CM is Bellingham. He already can progress the excellently through passing or dribbling from deep, and he's very press resistant. Rice should win it and move it short, Bellingham the deep orchestrator, Foden or Palmer the 10, or the really high 8 in a 4-3-3. Wharton deputises for Rice, Mainoo for Bellingham as both deputies get more experienced

[SouthCoastRed]

4 hours ago, Citizen Sandman said:

but this is all we have, assholes and opinions

OTF Football Forum summed up nicely 

[Nordan]

You're wasting one of your best generations on Southgate.

[Heartwork]

Spain taking a leaf out of Serbia and Argentina's books by singing provocative nonsense after winning

[Constantine]

9 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

Spain taking a leaf out of Serbia and Argentina's books by singing provocative nonsense after winning

Oi, don't put us Serbs with that lot...

We ain't winning anything

 

[Heartwork]

True, Serbian fans sing about Kosovo regardless.

Having some fun calling out Spanish hypocrisy over their own colonies they still control though. Their nationalists really don't like that.