Maldini's Heir

February 19, 2020

13 hours ago, CFuller said:

I won't repeat too much of what @XaW has already written, but if you're doing well enough without restarting, why do you feel the need to reload when things don't go to plan... especially when reload victories feel so hollow to you?

Norwich 3-2 Manchester City. If Pep Guardiola could have restarted that match 99 times, he would probably have won around 90 times out of 99.

In one scenario, Man City could have scored in the first minute, thus ruining Daniel Farke's tactical plans, and routed Norwich 5-0 or 6-0. But in another, Ederson could have pulled a muscle early on, and Claudio Bravo could have replaced him and conceded every shot on target he faced. Who can know for sure?

But seeing as you posted on the feedback thread that you've just given up, I suppose this is just meaningless to you now. It's obvious that FM doesn't give you joy anymore (and likely never will again), so please heed my advice:

I usually restart after the game thinks that it's acceptable for me to sit through 3 games in a row where my team has disallowed goals, hits the past 5 times, misses countless one v ones and just generally feels like it's stuck.

It's like a fruit machine where the symbols are jammed and you have to switch off at the wall and restart it.

As you've noted I'm checking out.

What I will do is continue using the game as a database and will go back to playing PES where I can actually get my team to play properly.

I use FM to simulate seasons, transfers, league tables, fixtures, injuries, opposition results. - the lot. And just play the games through PES and make sure that the results match up.

This gives me the best of both worlds.

But the people who make this game need to know that that there is a need for vast improvement and just basic enjoyment.

February 19, 2020

12 hours ago, pheelf said:

To coin a word you used, you have a completely arbitrary way of playing the game so it comes as no surprise to me that you have become disillusioned.

Lose a game...reload until you win it.

See your players doing something you don't like in the ME...ME must be broken.

If tactics were meaningless as you suggest in FM20 then I wouldn't have been able to make tactical changes and come back from 3-0 down to draw a game 4-4 to take my team through to the Champions League group stage. If tactical changes made no difference then I wouldn't have been able to beat vastly superior opposition in the qualifiers after watching the game and spotting how my opponent was playing and exploiting their weaknesses with tactical tinkering.

The fact that you believe that changing to a more attacking formation would be enough to get past a parked bus speaks volumes to your approach when it comes to tactics. Piling men forward and hoping for the best isn't a strategy, it's desperation. Also, by switching to a more aggressive formation you realize that you are leaving yourself more open defensively and if your team isn't troubling the opponent that the quality of chance the opposition will be able to create against you will be better when they have possession as you will be giving them more space.

All that reloading you have done has taught you precisely nothing about how to change things when they aren't going your teams way. As a result, anytime you get into difficulty you just throw stuff against the wall and hope it sticks and if it doesn't instead of trying to learn the game and understand the reasons why you have an easy scapegoat in the ME so don't bother hence you make no progress.

There are issues in the ME (I don't think there are many posters in this thread which have said any different) but they aren't severe to the point where the manager can't influence at all how his team plays through tactics. If your tactics and instructions aren't making any difference to the way your team is playing then there is something fundamentally wrong with how you are creating tactics.

Also, I would caution against regularly making major tactical changes during a match such as formation changes if you aren't playing FMT as familiarity is a factor.

If ultimately you choose to give up playing the game then more power to you if it's "ruining football" for you, no point continuing to play a game you can't stand.

Best Regards

Lose a game...reload [once and I] win it is more like it.

Anyway I think you're missing the point. The thing that caused me to switch off was my team scoring three goals of the season in one game......

I can't watch my team constantly score goals of the season.

Since I win far more than I lose, it's the winning that hurts the most. The losing is usually just farcical but the winning I find even more painful!

February 19, 2020

I think I'm finally tapping out.....

I can't do it any more.

I can't watch another game on this ME.

I can't watch my FB hit the most unlikely of passes to my inside CM on the other side of the pitch which either gets intercepted to start a counter attack or my CM takes a touch and shoots into top corner from 40 yards out.

This is just one example of the countless completely unlikely scenarios that I have to sit through each game. And they're so repetitive and so like nothing I have ever seen happening on a football pitch.

And that's before we get to the fact that tactics and instructions don't seem to make the slightest difference. A personal favourite is when I go a goal down to the bottom team and switch to a more attacking formation and the very next scene in the ME is that bottom team in my third. The game is telling me my tactics are meaningless. Now here's another pass from my LWB missing out my AM to my RCM who will hit another goal of the season......broken.

But really it was my own fault. I broke the game with restarts. The worst thing about restarts is that it shows how arbitrary the whole thing is. I lose. I restart. I win. "It's football". Thanks for ruining football.

I won't be buying this game next season without a vast improvement in the ME.

February 19, 2020

On 18/02/2020 at 11:34, 99 said:

Don't get me wrong, wasn't attacking you.

I did the same before, made my tactics based on how green the player's positions and roles were. Then by reading here people like @Cleon, @Rashidi and others I learned that it doesn't matter, it was eye opening for me.

I'm sorry if you thought something else from my comment.

Don't worry about it. I was joking

I am more concerned that this game rewards playing players out of position.

February 19, 2020

On 18/02/2020 at 00:02, XaW said:

Or, you know, tactics and changes based of the actual play inside each match. I only use a single tactic, I've changed it a bit if I feel I can do things that add to it, but it's generally the same since I started the last game.

This is how I'm doing so far:

I've gotten Caersws of Welsh non-league into the group stage of the Champions League 3 times so far. AND I've done it without buying any players. Only youth intakes. I'm well into my 14th season with the team, and no changes to tactics at least the last 10. Do I win every match? Well, in Wales, most of them (no losses in the league), but in the CL I lose quite a few. Still, last season I beat Lyon at home, and only lost 0-1 away to Barcelona. Have I always done great with it? No, I lost 10-1 to Atletico Madrid some years ago, so losses are natural when I'm a poorer team. But when my team slowly gets more competitive, I also do better. It's almost like getting better players make my team do better. /sarcasm

Am I just insanely lucky? Is that your argument? I've tailored this tactic to suit my team, and when I had a team I wanted I'm training my players to suit my tactic. Since I don't buy anyone, I can always train the players to fit into the mould of the tactic when they are ready.

I know I'm playing this differently than a lot of others, but it works for me. I highlight this to show you that tactics do play a major role, but it can only get you to a certain point. I've lost heavily, I've lost finals, I've missed out on European football, and money. But I'm using the same tactics all the way. Am I getting luckier for each season? Or am I having better players?

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I manage Milan and generally, without restarts, I am over-achieving. I always finish in the top 4 and restarts really have just come down to whether or not I win titles.

I win far more than I lose including managing 12 consecutive wins in Serie A, without restarts, which is not too bad.

My issue is that the restarts show how much luck is involved. One restart took me from a 2:0 defeat to Juve (after the game had just stopped letting me score for 3 games in a row) to a 5:0 win. And I'm more annoyed with the 5:0 win than the 2:0 defeat because I did nothing to deserve it.

Sure "things happen in games" but this is just ridiculous. Every game I've restarted (and I've restarted about 20), I have immediately achieved a better result, usually turning a defeat into a win by doing nothing. I keep the same tactics and use the exact same team talk (which hilariously gets a different response from the exact same players). This points to a degree of randomness that is beyond the normal randomness of football and is more akin to the randomness of a fruit machine. And, yes, I know FM is one big fruit machine but it can at least do a better job of hiding the fact.

February 16, 2020

Ok the restarts thing is getting completely out of hand in this game.

It almost feels at times that the game is stuck like one of those frozen save icons on a Mac. It just gets into a rut and doesn't seem to know how to get out of it without a restart.

I am sitting comfortably in the top 4 but have zero confidence that I'll win the title even though I'm 6 points behind. I play Roma, Inter and Juve and lost all three games without scoring a goal. But all of those games were "unlucky". I had a goal disallowed, I hit the post 5 times in 3 games and missed numerous one v ones.

When I lost to Juve I thought I'd replay the Juve game for the laugh. And laugh I did. Same tactics, same team talk, 5:0. I won 5:0 without changing anything.

And then I was back to my winning ways. The game had "unfrozen".

That's just not right.

@ XaW One of the reason people over-complicate their tactics is that they don't appreciate how so many results happen because of luck. "It's your tactics" really should be replaced with "It's your luck".

February 16, 2020

On 15/02/2020 at 02:48, 99 said:

My biggest tactical leap in Football Manager was when I learned (in this forum and related blogs) that what you said basically doesn't matter.

Glad I could help....

February 14, 2020

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

The only problem is, that isn't how football works. It is way too restrictive. in real, players have numerous roles/duties depending on who has the ball and where. It is way more complicate than just setting mentality, 11 players and their positions, roles/duties. the whole essence of a football tactics is interaction between the players. The way they work together towards the common goal

This is not something though that is done in tactics but training.

What would really lift FM to another level is if they allowed us to do shadow play in training. We should be able to pre-program where we want our players to run, A simple place to start would be set pieces. It's unbelievable that in 2020 we cannot tell a player to make a specific run at a set piece (as opposed to the generic ones in FM).

February 14, 2020

46 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

I know it may seem like a simple concept, but I still can't decide what to use, how to use, or when to use Inverted Wingers or Wingers, and Wingbacks or Inverted Wingbacks. How do I decide what to use, what should I be looking for in a player to perform these roles, and when should I used them? I do know for Inverted Wingers and Wingers to look what side the strong foot is on, but this goes for signing players as well, what role I should be looking at.

Use the position that best suits the players....

When you select a player for a position see what gives them the most green. I find that more important than worrying too much about the positions.

February 13, 2020

Ironically I probably did less restarts as a kid and have certainly never needed to restart a game as many times as FM20.

February 13, 2020

On the restart thing, I'd say a few things:

Firstly, I do this thing where I will often replay the first 4 or 5 games of a season to test tactics. I also don't think it's good to start a brand new job as a manager with a defeat. Come on.

Secondly, once I get through the first few games then the intention is to get through the season without restarts. Restarts are often cause by a rage quit. Then the choice is either to carry on or go back to the start again. The further I am into a season the harder it is to simply restart the whole thing.

Thirdly, a unique problem with this game is just how often a re-start will lead to a different result. So when I rage quit and replay I immediately am rewarded with a better result. Above I gave examples of past games where it would take multiple restarts to figure out how to defeat a team. In FM20 a simple restart changes the outcome. That just makes the whole thing feel completely arbitrary and that ruins the experience as much as anything.

Fourthly, the rage will build up slowly over a number of games. It's not one game where things go against me, it's multiple games in a row that just chip away. In what world do I want to see my team not score in 6 games? Only to restart the 6th game and my team suddenly scores? Who knows, had I let it go to 7 then that might have been when the random result generator allowed me to score again but it all seems very arbitrary.

Fifthly (I'm not even sure if the -ly is necessary), on two occasions now I have been treated to the full Kevin Keegan experience. My team has managed to throw away 12 and 15 point leads as the game turns on me at the end of the season. Again, who wants that experience? Twice. It's just beyond depressing. Anyway, one restart and.......the rot stops. Why?

Many of these problems are unique to FM20.

February 12, 2020

4 hours ago, Snorks said:

I think the issue here is people's own expectations of the game. It is designed in such a way that we can be as deeply immersed in the FM universe as we we choose, don;t like the intricacies of the training? Delegate to the AssMan. Don;t enjoy the scouting? Delegate to Chief Scout of DoF. Leave youth development to the staff if you choose to do so, leave all financial investment decisions to the board and so on and so on.

At the end of the day though, this is a football management simulation and ultimately, we play it to mange a simulated football team - even at it's most basic, full-delegation we still need to manage the team which means, tactics. Even though, if you want to, you can pull up one of the pre-set tactics and go with that, or download one and go with that.

The way the ME works is so full of tiny little variables every second of the 90mins that a different result is far more likely if you quit and restart, than the same result from the same stats. So the same tactic can end up having different results (by which I mean, full statistical results rather than the simple scoreline)

So, if you really aren't enjoying it, then walk away. I think most of us do it at some point for a while. I find I get the 'itch' again after a week without playing though, depending on what else is happening in life, and if you have a 3 month old, I can imagine there is a lot of fun stuff happening around your place at the moment. I have 16 and 14 yr old (both girls), I have a collection of Bonsai trees and Football Manager to keep me sane and keep me occupied when I'm not Uber Driver Dad.

The game is what it is, it has many built-in options for you to customise the way you want to play it and enjoy it.

A 3 month old is definitely more fun than this game...

But that is the issue, and the question posed by the person who started this thread. People's expectations of a game is primarily to have fun. I have had fun with other versions. I expect to have fun with this version.

I've punched the air once in this game. That's a poor return for the number of games I've played.

February 11, 2020

10 hours ago, Svenc said:

I think his Point is that he wins those Matches on the reload most of the time. Depending on how often this goes, it's not so much his tactics™ -- but his match Management approach to certain Kind of games. Likely the ones where the AI "parks the bus" and soaks up shots. If he takes an early lead, the win is guaranteed. Let's say his tactics is good enough for that 70-80% of the time -- the key then to figure out is how to get that a little higher with a plan B tailored for stretching packed defenses. Is it something about his starting set-up? What does he do if the clock is running out and the opener still isn't coming? What happens if the AI and if by luck takes the lead? At the Moment, he may rely on scoring the opener a bit too much. Which makes AI Players lose confidence, and results in the AI not playing that defensively any longer, or else it would lose the match. More attacking AI attacks = more space. So the same match can either result in a 1-0 win for the AI or a trashing.

That said, I find it disheartening that Players can't even take the Point Drops on the chin, and the rampant save Progression Neil talks About doesn't Sound too appealing to me personally either. What's a Football sim without ever getting embroiled in a Relegation fight, despite having this weak a Squad? I've played Management games on Commodore 64 that had more varied seasonal Scenarios to offer, and made a Promotional season a challenge as the Squads usually weren't up to par.

That balance Thing.

That's probably right since it's also why I struggle against 10 men etc. Although the ME representation of "struggling to overcome park the bus" should not be - here's a load of missed chances....I would've thought a better representation would be lots of passing and looking for space (if your tactic is work the ball into the box) or direct passing and knock downs being blocked (which would be more exciting).

But anyway, this isn't a tactics thread. It's whether or not the game is enjoyable thread (so should probably just go into feedback).

Whatever my tactics, I should still be able to experience joy in this game like I have in other games. That is the issue. The lack of joy.

February 11, 2020

1 hour ago, Nathozz said:

Realistically if you restarted any game in real life you’d get a different result?

Like Neil mentions a wayward pass would change the result of the game. A player getting injured during a game would change the result.

If Gerrard didn’t slip then Liverpool might have won the league.

If you restarted the AC Milan vs Liverpool Champions League final then it would be a completely different result.

Just a couple of examples.

FM has its quirks and some issues but sometimes it’s a little bit TOO easy.

Maybe watch the game on match commentary instead of 3D? It has its limitations on what it can show you.

Not every time. A restart should not result in a different result nearly every single time.

You’re right the game is a little but too easy. The results that go against always seem to be because of incidents. Realistically I should probably just be getting beaten more. No need for near misses.

February 11, 2020

1 hour ago, Grifty said:

Honestly mate, if you are this unhappy with the game and have this view, just go spend time with your 3 month old - you'll be far happier for it.

Don't force yourself to play it. Have a break, you'll get the itch to play in a few months and feel a lot better about playing.

Thanks. I’m spending plenty of time with my 3 month old.

Like I said, I need an outlet for football. This is what passes for an outlet.

I think the thing that we should be taking from my posts is not me, it’s the game. They need to produce a better game.

Football is a game of ups and downs. We need more ups.

PS I’m not as depressed as it sounds. I’m just very good at being dramatic. Like my 3 month old.

February 11, 2020

@ sporadicsmiles I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I'm listing are endless disappointments that occur in the game. They're just incidents. Disappointing incidents that I have very little control over.

It's not tactical because simply restarting games makes the problem go away.

If it was tactical then a restart should result in a similar result. Sure a restart might on occasion lead to a different result. Not 90% of the time. I can almost guarantee that a restart will deliver a different result. It's ridiculous.

I remember a few years back replaying a game against Juve about 20 times to win and when I won I was genuinely delighted because I know I had done something, maybe to change the result. In FM20 it's a case of one restart, different result.

"Probability" or "it's football" or "it's your tactics" are nonsense. It's the game.

But that's not even my biggest issue. My biggest issue is the lack of joy this game brings. In your selective quoting you skipped over one of the key ones. How the game denies my strikers hat tricks. This is not about winning or losing. In games where my strikers are scoring 2 goals I'm winning. Usually comfortably (winning is usually undramatic and joyless). But in those games the game will not even allow my striker score a hat trick. They'll hit the post or have a goal disallowed. I keep them on for the full 90 minutes but no joy.

If you want an "excuse", one thing I sometimes think is that because I play with Milan the players, just like real life, are just down on their luck, weak minded losers. And in fairness, if that is the case, SI has actually done a good job. But it still sucks. Especially when I play the game to escape the depressing reality of Milan.

Do something else - you say?

Well I've got a 3 month old so don't have time to play a proper football game in real life or PES or FIFA.

So in the year 2020 I'm stuck with this.

It's fine. I'm a kid of the 80s so I'm used to work arounds. Restarting games is my workaround.

February 11, 2020

1 hour ago, bahrami said:

Is anyone firmly fixed on getting FM21 as soon as it's released? Serious question, besides an updated database, I really don't see the fuss with the game anymore. Maybe I've just lost interest as the years have gone on but I really can't get into it like in previous years.

No chance.

February 11, 2020

24 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The solution within FM's Simulation is an actually realistic feature request. One that would imo be actually crucial to balancing the game to a wider range of Players, whilst not Holding the AI development overly back longer term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henk_ten_Cate

https://www.dw.com/en/löw-celebrates-a-year-of-success-before-real-test-begins/a-2679005-0

The assistant Manager modules at the Moment aren't a) sophisticated enough b) and not particularly fun/engaging, as it leaves Little decisions for the Manager to still make. As the current assistant Managers are AI, they would not struggle to score last Minute Goals though as Maldini's H. does. Imagine assistants that: - Could optionally Show you how he's doing it (for sure not sitting on a loss with but a few minutes to go). - You could instruct what formation/playing style to favor. - Additionally instruct when exactly to apply a match strategic change and where (GUY, it's just a couple minutes left, we're behind on the scoreboard; let's try to still salvage something out of this // We're in the lead, let's try to preserve what we have etc.) Assistant AI could also be of different skill Levels too.

Good ideas.

I don't struggle with last minute goals necessarily.

My point is more that last minute goals are examples of where the game seems to produce disappointments more than moments of joy. A last minute goal is part of the ups and downs of football. In FM20 those ups and downs are more downs and downs....

February 10, 2020

24 minutes ago, f.zaarour said:

@Maldini's Heir I feel ya there. The match playing is just a part of the game and its sad that that part is messing up the enjoyment of the game for some players. Many points you clear out happens to me also sadly.

I did also rematching when games brings you frustration and suddenly you can win the game. I dont want to do it but i dont see any other option in those moments to understand where the issue is of

losing or winning that same game. It seems like that you have to change your tactic all the time which is kinda unrealistic, especially if your a big team. As if Liverpool, City, Real or barca in their Pep time continuously had to change their tactic.

Maybe after a year or two that the winning tactic is over as opponents find out a counter tactic but not after every single match like the AI in FM does in some way. Its sad for sure.

But as @likesiamesefish says might be an option for you. I had one and the mood is positive for me now to try to play again, also after the update. Just had to point this sadness out here to make that restart lol.

But we don't need to change tactics constantly. When I restart I'm always careful to use the same tactics and team talks and this 90% of the time leads to a different result.

The really funny thing is that I usually save a game after I have picked my team and my tactics and about to submit my team. So when I replay the game the only thing I need to do is submit the team (exact same tactics and team) and give a team talk (which is usually the same team talk). But get this, the exact same team talk usually produces entirely different responses......

Now ok, I know it's all about probability and I'm sure if I walked into a room two times and said the same thing people would react, erm, differently.....but...what a mess....

February 10, 2020

35 minutes ago, likesiamesefish said:

@Maldini's Heir I sincerely suggest that you take a break from playing the game for a bit mate.

Frankly, it's got to the stage where I find it comical.

Anyway I've found my fix. Simply restart and the disappointments go away.

But maybe this is something that could be included in feedback. "Try and bring some joy to the world". That seems like a reasonable mission statement....

February 10, 2020

I'm finding this to be the least joyful game I've ever played (and I include playing against my cheating brother in Monopoly).

Every. Single. Incident. Ends in disappointment. It's uncanny.

all last minute goals go to the computer (and no, it's not my tactics, I'm talking about in the 500 odd games I've played, whenever there's been a last minute goal it's usually gone to the computer designed as a means for crushing my spirit);
if I'm losing or need a win, I can almost guarantee I will get a chance in the last minute and miss it (just to really rub it in);
if my player is on 2 goals he will always be denied a hat trick which will usually involve the disappointment of hitting the post or having a goal disallowed;
last night I lost 3:2 to 10 man Cagliari despite having over 40 shots on goal and 25 on target - this is just too regular occurrence to take seriously;
when the other team gets a man sent off I curse the screen in the full knowledge that the game is doing it to simply troll me - I don't think I've ever beaten a team with 10 men (of course it's my tactics, my 11 men suddenly equal the other team's 10 men);
every cup final ends in disappointment;
every season falls apart at the end Kevin Keegan style;
every new signing disappoints;
when I win, it's usually without drama (so I don't get to punch the air), if I lose it's usually due to countless missed chances or a last minute goal (so I get to punch the screen).

It's just one crushing, disappointment after the other. The way I offset this disappointment is to simply replay matches. When I replay matches many of the disappointing incidents simply disappear.

That disappointing cup defeat? Well replay the final with the exact same tactics and team talk and you'll enter that parallel universe of joy.

I would say the vast majority of games I've restarted (and I normally restart about 5 games per season) have resulted in me winning. All the bad things have go away and suddenly, inexplicably, "it's your tactics" start working and I get to feel a small piece of joy. Until the next crushing disappointment. Then the universe needs to be reset again.

I've never experienced anything like it. I did go back to FM19 but when the update came out I thought I'd give it another go. Things have improved but the game seems pre-programmed to deliver one disappointment after the next.

It's uncanny.

February 10, 2020

11 hours ago, Lyngby said:

Sometimes if a player is injured you can use club doctor or send to specialist. If I know the club doctor is a top clas doctor I could save the money for the specialist. It would be good to se some kind of rating stars.

I don't get many serious injuries to justify it so I just send to a specialist.

As a general rule, I think football clubs (like most organisations) have become too top heavy.

February 10, 2020

What does a doctor do?

Does it keep down injuries?

Because I usually make sure I have physios with the highest physio stat and then leave the rest and don't tend to get many injuries.

I generally try and avoid all of the unnecessary roles at the club such as directors of football, data analysts, loan managers and doctors....

February 7, 2020

4 hours ago, Bry said:

This is unnecessarily nasty. You actually made some interesting points further on. You clearly know that SI have ‘seen a game of football’. I don’t know what people hope to achieve by spouting such vitriol.

Sorry if people were offended.

The reference to never seeing a game is, of course, metaphorical.

And my frustration is not even leveled at SI but the year 2020 and the state of computer games. I could go further and criticise the whole of humanity for failing to build a moon colony but that would certainly be off topic......

February 7, 2020

19 hours ago, thiagoanjo said:

100% agreed. Lack of competition made FM 17 get 3 patches, they call FM18, 19 and 20, big patches for FM17.

Almost no improvement of ME, the most important thing in the game. And it seems SI has no test team, cause the issues that people are raising are so obvious and happens almost every single game, there are no testers that plays the entire match on full mode? How they release a game with that amount of ME bugs?

The ME is actually quite pathetic if you think about it.

This is 2020 and there is barely a passing resemblance to football happening on the pitch.

People talk about resources but it seems so much resources have been put into irrelevant stuff off the pitch. Sure it's primarily a management game but management doesn't need to be that complicated. And the more complicated you make it the more there is a risk of those things not being reflected in the ME.

In 2020 one would expect that we would have a game that pretty much looks like real football especially when it is 'just' a management game.

The big advantage a management game has over say FIFA or PES is that it can more easily predict the moves. It doesn't need to worry about a human controlling the game and making it do thinks, it just needs to take a set of instructions and plug them into an existing template. That existing template should look like real football.

Surely the starting point is just to take real life events and put them into a game. The goals, passes, tackles, saves and the rest should be lifted directly from real football matches. They can do that because they get to control the actions on the pitch.

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Posts posted by Maldini's Heir