danej

Swicthing to Tiki-Taka gave me the challenge I was looking for

Don't you find Gegenpress overpowered? In my experience, Gegenpressing has been OP in every single save since I started playing back at FM21. Personally I have probably gotten a bit fed up with Gegenpressing, because it seems very OP. Succes can be fun up to a certain point. But when I found that with Gegenpressing, succes was basically a foregone conclusion with any team, I started to lose interest.

Yes, I think you are right. By the way, see my comments above. I have been having many of the same thoughts myself in recent days.

Yeah, I guess you are right. I guess I in part wrote the OP also in order to make myself reflect better, as many people do from time to time I guess, here and elsewhere. In part a bit like a diary, but better since you often get quality input here. Since I wrote the OP, I have more or less decided to try the standard Tiki-Taka (not the vertical one, although the vertical one might be more OP in the game engine). More specifially, I will probably play the template 4-3-3 DM wide Tiki-Taka (non-vertical) in all future saves. That is, untill I get excited about a new project which of course happens from time to time. In any case, this means that I will use the Tiki-Taka whether I am Man City or the worst team in the Vanarama North/South. Should be fun. Success comes too easily with Gegenpressing that I have used so far, in spite of vary harsh restrictions that I use on all my saves (barely buying any players, only about 1-2 each year that the DoF initialises, not touching training, not touching scouting, delegating almost everything including hiring/firing of staff etc.). Results will likely be worse than with Gegenpressing at almost any club. Especially in the short term, when I have not had several transfer windows to recruit new players whom fit the Tiki-Taka. But we shall see. I am looking forward to trying it out in any case. Think it will be enjoyable.

I guess so. I guess that what I meant was - which template tactics are the best ones (in this or the other scenario) in the long term, when you constistently recruit players who fit the system? Over many transfer windows, season after season. But such a question doesn't necessarily make sense I guess. The experienced heads here know much better than I do.

I don't want to use anything but template tactics. In part due to wanting to make the game harder, as part of a set of harsh restrictions. In part because I hate tactics and basically want to spend as little time on it as possible. So - if you are only allowed to use the in-game template tactics (see picture): - Which are the best ones? When? In which scenario is this or the other tactic strong? - Which are the most enjoyable ones, the most beautiful to watch? When, under which circumstances (how good do the players need to be in which ways in order to master a given style etc.). What I know so far: Gegenpressing still seems OP in most scenarios. That is pretty much all I know from personal experience, since I have barely ever used anything else. I seriously consider trying Tiki-Taka because it could be beautiful to watch, potentially the most beautiful playing style. Like Barcelona back in the day. But I wonder how that would work in League Two or something, hehe.

Yes, exactly. Before FM23 I always used the template 4-2-3-1 Gegenpress. I don't think it works as well now that the two CM's are DM's instead. That is why my primary formation is now the 4-3-3 DM wide instead.

I think this is very good advice. As are most of the posts here. Thanks. At the same time I will add that the template Gegenpressing seems semi-OP in my experience. At least the 4-3-3 DM wide type which is more or less the only one I have used. This tactic has overperformed in every single save I have played, and in every or almost every season. In any case I really like this advice. It could be interesting to try it out. Then I would also often try a new template tactic every time I start a new start, or switch to a new club. Could be interesting.

I have never seen Norwich get below 95 points in season 1 in the Championship. Managed by AI that is.

When I think more about it + what you write made me think - perhaps there isn't a great difference between Gegenpressing and Tiki-Taka. Both are high pressing, dominating styles. Perhaps Tiki-Taka is sort of like Gegenpressing but with some severe drawbacks that Gegenpressing doesn't have; that Tiki-Taka only works if you have world class technical players (in theory). But again, I don't really know. Have barely used anything apart from Gegenpressing so far. I imagine that Tiki-Taka works at least as well as Gegenpressing if you have a world class squad like Man City, Bayern, PSG, Man Utd etc. But I don't know. And perhaps it doesn't matter much either for a guy like me who pretty much hate tactics and want to touch it as little as possible, just want something that works and never have touch it again basically.

Yeah I have pretty much the same impression. Although I at the same time I don't know. I have only used Gegenpressing so far. It has always worked very well, as long as I rotate a lot, which I always do. I guess I should just stick with Gegenpressing then, no matter how horrible or how world class my players are. When I don't really want to switch unless one of the other two options are vastly better in certain scenarios.

I know. If you read my posts carefully, you would know that it was a figure of speach. What matters is the quality of the squad of course. The question remains. Whether one should consider another of the three options if ones squad is below or above a certain level of quality. And if yes, what is the cut off, how to phrase it more specifically, more actionable.

By the way, it goes without saying that I buy/sell players according to the tactic I want to use. So sooner or later, my squad will be well suited to whichever of those tactics I go for. I imagine that the main risk is to opt for Gegenpressing or Tiki-Taka too soon. Before I have good enough players. Before I have enough money to buy good enough players. Although I would still like more rules of thumb as to what might be the threshold for ditching Route One or Gegenpress and switch to one of the fancier tactics. I guess there is a hierarchy here: Route One - easy. The simplest tactic. Can work with any team basically. Gegenpress - medium complexity or slightly above. Works for most teams with at least a 2.5 star club reputation. Perhaps somewhat lower as well, but I have personally no experience manager teams with a club reputation below 2.5 stars. Tiki-Taka - maximum complexity. I imagine that Tiki-Taka is usually inferior to Gegenpress unless you have a very strong squad, corresponding to a club reputation of at least 4 stars, if not 4.5.

Sounds like Route One (from the mentioned three options) then is probably the better option for most teams with club reputation at 1.5-2 start or lower (with players at a corresponding level). I imagine that it is rather easy to find some good and cheap target men no matter what level you are at.

I would think that this is generally good advice. However, as mentioned I prefer to spend as little time as tactics as possible. I barely know anything about tactics, except that Gegenpressing has always worked very well for me (when I rotate a lot). And I don't intend to learn much about tactics either Prefer to be in many ways ignorant at play the game in a very suboptimal manner as the game is rather easy in any case, too easy for my taste. So I was looking for rules of thumb. On second though, I see that this input is also generally useful. I never thought of the attribute aspects that you mention, running attributes and height. It makes sense. Thanks. Still, this input raises a further question in my mind: Can even a poor Vanarama North/South team succeed with Gegenpressing, as long as the players have decent core attributes? I imagine that stamina and work rate are the most important ones.

So, which one is better of these three template tactics: 1. Gegenpress 4-3-3 DM wide 2. Tiki-Taka 4-3-3 DM wide 3. Route One, either 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 DM wide I don't want to consider any other tactic. Partially because I find tactics boring and want to spend as little time on it as possible. Partially as part of my save restrictions, in order to not use any plugin super OP tactics. I know from experience that the Gegenpress tactic (no. 1) works very well, at least when your club has a club reputation between 2.5 - 3.5 stars which is all I have tried so far (played Championship Manager back in the day, but have only played newer versions since FM21, I have probably only played 15 seasons or so on FM in total). And I probably won't consider any of the other when I manage a club with club reputation in that range (2.5 - 3.5 start). Never change a winning team. However, two questions: a. Perhaps I should consider using option no. (Route One) if/when I try lower league management? From what I hear, Route One might be the best tactic when you have a crap team. But if so, how bad should the team be, before Route One is better than Gegenpressing? Roughly a club reputation of 2 stars? 1.5? 1? 0.5? (or whatever repuation the worst team in the Vanarama North/South has, I don't know). b. Perhaps I should consider using the Tiki-Taka when I manage a really strong team? Because it might look cool, and it might be at least as good as the Gegenpressing when you manage a top side? If yes, how good should your team be before you should ditch the Gegenpressing and opt for Tiki-Taka instead? Roughly club reputation 4 start, or only at 4.5 stars (I don't believe any teams have a club reputation higher than 4.5)?

The stuff I missed was moved. Now it is under squad planner - Assistant's report, or something like that

Mostly the former. I play with many restrictions because I get bored if there is too much succes. The restrictions include: - Delegating everything regarding hiring/firing of staff - Delegating everything regarding scouting (letting the DoF/HoyD initiate and negotiate potential incoming transfer, I finalise myself which means that I cancel most of the deals since they are rubbish, so I hardly ever buy any players, perhaps 1-2 per year). - Delegating almost everything regarding training (I never do individual training; I tweak individual training work loads in order to reduce injury risk. On rare occasions I tweak the preset training schedules, in case they are messed up, usually because of fixture congestion or a changed match schedule) - Only using the template in-game tactics. Usually the 4-3-3 DM wide Gegenpress. Sometimes a long ball tactics. In theory I would probably use a Tiki Taka if I was managing an elite team, but I haven't tried that so far. - Never asking for facility upgrades, more staff etc. Never asking the board for anything, only approving upgrades which they initiate themselves.

This makes sense. However, my situation is different. I don't hire my own staff, so my HoYD and U18 don't necearily have good personalities (one of many restrictions I use because I don't like the game to be too easy).

Thanks for the input. However, my situation is different. I don't hire and fire staff myself. This one of many restrictions I use, primarily to get a tougher challenge, secondarily for realism purposes. So my staff is whatever the Dog decides it to be. Usually the original staff with a few additions, he usually hires a few people during the first season to fill out vacant spots. In any case, perhaps I should look into what you imply. Check the personality and coaching attributes (and WWY) if the U18 and U21 staff.

What would be good rules of thumb when it comes to deciding whether a given 17 year old should be placed in the U18 or U21 squad (England)? My impression is that it is usually a no brainer to keep 15-16 year olds in the U18 squad, bar the rare exception that the player is good enough for the first team squad. Similarly, my impression is that it is a no brainer to put players aged 18 and older in the U21 squad (those who can't get a good loan and who aren't good enough for the first team squad). But I am uncertain when it comes to the U17 year olds. I struggle to find good rules of thumb when it comes to those. Right now it is a little random what I do with them. A lot is up to squad composition. If one squad is full and the other isn't, I put the given player in the smaller squad so to speak. But often at my club, a given 17 y/o player can get decent game time in both the U18 and the U21, usually neither squad is overloaded with players the way I do things. So I don't know. I guess the main argument for keeping a 17 y/o at the U18's is the idea that coaching might be better there, perhaps the coaching staff there is overall better and/or have a better Working with youngsters attribute (this might not be the case, I am just speculating now). On the other hand, I guess the main argument for having a low threshold to move 17 year olds to the U21 squad is that they assumingly get playing time at a higher level, and perhaps there isn't a big difference when it comes to the quality of the coaching staff.

I suspect there is a bug in FM23 that wasn't there in FM22. More specifically: When a player with settled status (non-UK player playing in the UK) agrees to a new contract and is given a work permit, it seems like the work permit actually isn't given after all. After signing, the player is still listed with settled status. Even if I received a notification in my inbox saying that the work permit had been approved. Strange. Due to this seeming bug, I wonder whether it is now a huge lottery regarding players with settled status. Regardless whether they have signed a new contract and seemingly had a work permit approved, I guess you can't know what is actually the case untill after 1/1/24.

I really appreciate all the contributions to this post so far. When I think about it, my main dilemma might be: How challenging do I want my saves to be? What is the right balance for me? When is a save neither too succesful and boring, nor too challenging? My last several saves have probably been too succesful for my subjective taste. Not challenging enough. Perhaps I should take drastic steps in the opposite direction. Eventually I might be able to calibrate myself towards a good balance for my subjective taste.

A tweak I am considering is to be able to veto signings. In other words, to cancel incoming deals before they are finalized. If I think the player isn't good enough, or isn't worth the outlay. But I don't know. Perhaps that will make the game easier that I like, preserving money for better deals in the future. Besides, I am unresolved regarding the realism aspect. On one hand one could argue that it is normal that many manager have a big say regarding incoming transfers. On the other hand, often the DoF has the final word in such matters.

Yeah. I guess the normal summer pre-season is ok even if left to the staff. In my experience, problems primarily arise in countries that have a lengthy mid-season break, if you are still in Europe over christmas. Example: I am managing Danish side AaB (Aalborg BK). In the third season I managed to get to the new Europa League league phase. The last two of the eight EL league matches were scheduled in late January 2025. I have a lengthy mid season league brake between around December 1st - February 23rd. The staff didn't arrange any friendlies untill around Februay 1st, after the two EL league matches... So I had the choice to either manually add in some friendlies or play those EL league matches with rock bottom match fitness.