[As cringy as it sounds] I have to go away from here.

[99]

Prev point, I'm not ignorant as how forums work, I manage some local forums myself.

But this forum is not good to me. I found myself, since FM18, to enjoy my game until the moment I come here, exacerbated recently. Then I read "bugs" I never seen myself and problems I never or rarely experienced myself and people freting and saying they can't ever play the game like this anymore and I start to look at those things for the first time and start to wonder, should I wait for the next game to start my long serious save?... Just to realize, tho the reports have their truth in it, it's a bit stupid to start being affected by something I didn't even realized before reading so serious complains about it.

Thing is: I belong to some (IRL) football forums where, ofcourse, there are also many FM players. And we enjoy our game. We develop our tactics, in the team we love, with the starting eleven that we thing should play (and that our managers hardly "respect") and actually enjoy our saves. Develop and constructively criticize our tactics. Share our accomplishments. FM20, since Beta, has not been different. But one comes to this forums and suddenly a good (not perfect, but good) game seems like the most terrible mess ever made by a humam specimen.

I'm not saying the problems being reported are just the results of wildly imagination. Just that most of them, I can't even seen them. I make my strategies, my tactics, I play my game, and most of it I enjoy it. Weird isn't it? Seems so, when someone comes here and this game seems like an egregious attempt to exterminate the human race.

So I decided to go away. I'm in Rashidi's Bustthenet private Discord and I enjoy it, but I can't enjoy my Football Manager save if I stay here. And I should just go and not make a "cringy" post but I decided to share so maybe some people grow a conscience and realize that, while criticism and bug reporting are very useful (I do it myself, specially with Beta's), not a small number of destructive criticism and unreal complaint doesn't do any good to anyone.

Have fun in your savegames, I mean it. And I'll keep being a fervorous supporter of SI / FM, for as long as I genuinely enjoy it. Also a personal sorry to Miles, I criticized his complaints (repeatedly), but just now I actually understand them. And I understand him. He's right to be bitter. I am one, now, as well.

Edited November 20, 2019 by 99

[Dagenham_Dave]

Good post, I agree entirely. 

Some of the meltdowns are hilarious though, and it's always fun to 'poke the bear' so to speak 

 

[FrazT]

@99  A large % of players dont visit the forums and so are not aware of the "gamebreaking " bugs that other users find.  By all means take a break and just enjoy the game, even with its frustrations.  The forums will still be here when you return

[Dirty_ACE]

@99 Great post and I totally agree with you but I'd also like to add one thing and that's an element of... well... toxicity I guess, on these forums that didn't use to be. I'm not a newcomer to them or to the game but coming to these forums. I've used to come here very often for great content and discussion about this amazing game but over the last few releases my participation (in these forums) has simply dropped like a rock. It's just has become kind of uninviting with increased tolerance for terrible behavior from more and more people. I'm hoping it will improve (with tighter moderation) but then I've been hoping for this for the last few years.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Dirty_ACE

[99]

2 horas atrás, FrazT disse:

@99  A large % of players dont visit the forums and so are not aware of the "gamebreaking " bugs that other users find.  By all means take a break and just enjoy the game, even with its frustrations.  The forums will still be here when you return

To be fair, maybe I should have add to my post that I'm not blaming the mods at all. I think your work is great here. But as @Dirty_ACE said, there is some "toxicity", maybe related to the instant gratification that dominates us today, that sometimes is good to be away from, even if just for some time. Thank you

[Bry]

I feel the OP is being melodramatic but I can understand the point. 

However, a key purpose of this forum, especially around this time of year, is for people to report problems. Heck, there’s even a link in the beta versions directing them here directly.

Also, people who are immersed in a game that they’re happy with are less likely to bother posting feedback on here. 

That all being said, it can surely be no surprise whatsoever that the overriding themes are ones of a critical and/or negative nature.

[upthetoon]

I agree to a certain extent.

But part of where FM is in now, is in no small to the small community that visit and provide feedbacks to the forums. 

Some feedback may be critical or over the top, but it's still a feedback nonetheless and has helped the developers move forward and improve the game for you. 

The reason why the vast majority are enjoying the game is because of the few who visit the forums and bother to show the pkms and moan about how bad the game is. 

Just because you stop visiting this forums, and prefer to remain oblivious to gameplay issues, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. FM is a game where this small group of vocal community play a big role in its development. 

You just cannot deny, that FM is such an incredibly good game, because of the minority who are helping the SI via forums. 

[bigmattb28]

Best bit about posting things online is seeing the meltdowns, reddit facebook even other FM sites, the amount of of things that tripper people is unreal. I'm staying, and loving every minute of it.

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

You just cannot deny, that FM is such an incredibly good game, because of the minority who are helping the SI via forums. 

There is a difference though, between constructive criticism and some of the toxicity that har been flung around here, especially in regards to already acknowledged bugs. I think @99 have some good points in regards to how some users go straight into "full crisis"-mode no matter what. I mean, I've seen all kinds of tinfoil hat theories about SI in here and some serious harassment of SI and their staff. Luckily, mods are often on point to handle it, so it's not as noticeable as it could be.

The thing though, many SI devs/staff used to be much more part of this forum and it was really nice to be able to ask questions directly and got answers where you got the reasoning behind their choices. No matter if you agreed with that direction or not, it was still real community involvement. But when loads of users simply harass, and really show that common sense and courtesy are far from that common, the devs won't be as easy to interact with.

Take a look at the feedback thread, and look at how many posts are demanding, entitled whining instead of genuine feedback, positive or negative. There are several users who have written good feedback, some with a very positive view and some with a very negative view, but no matter how, it's still a good feedback. Then there are all the rest who one write in broad terms, using hyperbole like it's trending. "Worst me evor", "omg, I reported that bug and you haven't fixed it" and all the other nonsense.

Good feedback do help the game grow and evolve into an even better game. Dumb whining only creates a gap between the devs and the users and don't help the game one bit. 

[Karnack]

Totally feel you, I would have done the same if I felt this forum took away any form of enjoyment. Luckily for me I seem to mosly be able to enjoy the game no matter what anyone else thinks, but there are occasions when I need to take a break as well. This attribute thing had gone completely unnoticed until I entered the forum, once I started reading about it I seriously considered starting a new save despite being 4,5 seasons in. Eventually I decided to keep going, it just didn't disturb me in the slightest

[FlorianAlbert9]

You're right with no doubt about the toxic tone of some poster. 

And imho bugs have to stay in a bug sections (seems obvious...) with neutral tone.

But, sorry, i have to disagree about the 'if i don't see a bugs, then i prefer don't know it' things. 

Let me say that as example if there was a bug in Championship rules i will not notice them and that Will not ruin my game 'cause i don't use Championship. But that It would not be the same for others. 

So, if you don't see the (example, i don't start to play yet) determination o penalty bugs is because you don't pay attention at that. 

Another example: AI always (at least in last 10 editing) fail to replicate the strikers' goal ratio of real. 

If you look at Messi, he scored only quite the half of real life.

So, if you focus only on tour team maybe you will not see the AI faults.

I, for example, play always in Hungary, but i have to say that even if It Is not a gamebreaking thing of course, to see the best european goalscoring award won with 24 goals It Is something that break my immersion.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by FlorianAlbert9

[Lempicka]

There’s a lot of really helpful posters and sound advice on here - that’s why I’ve always dipped in and out and occasionally lurked.

You’re right though, despite the hilarious meltdowns (see yesterday), people whining about ‘gamebreaking’ bugs can put you off your save - especially during release time. 

Take a short break, concentrate on getting stuck in to your save and then come back when the whining has abated.

[Carambau]

22 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

You're right with no doubt about the toxic tone of some poster. 

And imho bugs have to stay in a bug sections (seems obvious...) with neutral tone.

But, sorry, i have to disagree about the 'if i don't see a bugs, then i prefer don't know it' things. 

Let me say that as example if there was a bug in Championship rules i will not notice them and that Will not ruin my game 'cause i don't use Championship. But that It would not be the same for others. 

So, if you don't see the (example, i don't start to play yet) determination o penalty bugs is because you don't pay attention at that. 

Another example: AI always (at least in last 10 editing) fail to replicate the strikers' goal ratio of real. 

If you look at Messi, he scored only quite the half of real life.

So, if you focus only on tour team maybe you will not see the AI faults.

I, for example, play always in Hungary, but i have to say that even if It Is not a gamebreaking thing of course, to see the best european goalscoring award won with 24 goals It Is something that break my immersion.

 

 

Here we go...

[tyro]

Excellent point and advice.

It is best to stay away from the general topic forum mostly (only to check for any updates).

Better to go to the tactics/team guide forum, although it also tends to go into apocalyptic mode at times.

The best way to enjoy the game is by just playing it yourself. And the forums where you can share your endeavors are also not bad and a fun way to interact in a positive way.

On a side note, Miles keeps posting that there are 60,000 plus online playing football manager. How many people are on this forum? Even if we say 2,000 that is still a fraction of those playing and that is just comparing to those online at this point.

Feedback is great and improves the game. Reading about a couple of individuals who find the ME the worst in the century because of X, messes up your mind and your enjoyment of the game.

 

[Dreambuilder]

The game to me and most of us is all about immersion. When you feel the immersion you are having the most fun. I understand the OP feel the most immersion playing with his friends etc. For others like me the most immersion and fun comes from realism and developing talents who exist IRL. The attributes bug for example broke that immersion and fun. Hence the forum is needed for communication and teamwork for a better game. If the OP feel that breaks his personal immersion and fun he is very right to stay away and just enjoy his game. Enjoy.

[andu1]

Exactly how i feel. I generally avoid the forum until the period when the updates are released so i don't ruin my experience when reading about all the bugs people encounter. I had a save started after 20.1 arrived so never noticed the "attributes" bug. Now it's ruined of course and have to start all over again.

That's not to say I don't appreciate the community. They help the devs immensely to fix most of the bugs so thumbs up to them too.

[Mr U Rosler]

FM is my official hobby, so I do check in the forums whilst I'm at work for a 'fix' to keep me going, but yes, like everywhere else online toxicity is increasing yearly. 

Got labelled a 'cheat' a couple of days ago whilst I was trying to help out with the attribute issue as you need the editor to view it. 

I should have a thicker skin, but stuff like that does bother me. 

I've written a training thread for FM20 like I did last year, but probably won't put it up, just don't need the aggro. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Mr U Rosler

[RDF Tactics]

7 hours ago, Dirty_ACE said:

@99 Great post and I totally agree with you but I'd also like to add one thing and that's an element of... well... toxicity I guess, on these forums that didn't use to be. I'm not a newcomer to them or to the game but coming to these forums. I've used to come here very often for great content and discussion about this amazing game but over the last few releases my participation (in these forums) has simply dropped like a rock. It's just has become kind of uninviting with increased tolerance for terrible behavior from more and more people. I'm hoping it will improve (with tighter moderation) but then I've been hoping for this for the last few years.

well not just people, i've seen not the best behaviour for the moderators too...just like you, i'm not new to this (i'm under a different name now) and i read a lot here too which just like this thread, it affects my fun but addiction haha...but my point is, seems like everyone in the forum is running out of patience with each other...some responses i've seen from moderators have been poor in my opinion. especially pre game release. i've seen them give real in depth answers only to when it suits them, and give real minimal replies on something thats been heavy requested...some bugs reports (people have gone through effort to get information) and have been ignored whilst others continue to get responded to or get the message (please provide PKM, or please report in bug section then get ignored) lol...i can only imagine the huge work they have and some of things they have to reply to must be frustrating as hell, but then thats what this place is for? lol...i just think everyone is running out of patience with everyone...people want a perfect game lol

[diddydaddydoddy]

Excellent first post and not in the least "melodramatic" in my opinion. I agree that there is a minority of people who post without any common decency, respect nor follow protocol. I'm sure much of it comes from frustration - and I get the frustration. But the minute you 'attack' someone (SI, individuals etc) it becomes an online 'fight' that escalates away from the original issue. If you clearly state what's wrong and why, then the reaction you get is likely to be more helpful. Not rocket science.

Research-wise, I'm happy to enagage but I get a few toxic / incredulous / rude posts because I've put someone's finishing as 16/20 when they say it has to be 17/20. They'll throw their toys out of the pram, state 'have I ever seen them play?', make out the game is unplayable almost etc. Yet they have been asked to provide reasons and proof (which they don't) so I have something tangible to go on and can review accordingly. Plus they ignore the fact that scoring isn't just down to the Finishing attribute (Concentration, Off The Ball, Technique, Anticipation etc also play a part). 

It's so irritating. However I certainly wouldn't let the minority ruin, on the whole, a good Forum experience.

 

[jmb1403]

3 hours ago, bigmattb28 said:

Best bit about posting things online is seeing the meltdowns, reddit facebook even other FM sites, the amount of of things that tripper people is unreal. I'm staying, and loving every minute of it.

Can't beat a good meltdown

Great post from the OP by the way - I hadn't noticed the bugs until coming on here and now see them all the time - still love the game though

Edited November 20, 2019 by jmb1403

[sporadicsmiles]

I wonder if this will descend into the very thing the OP wants to escape.

I am with you on this, a lot of the time these forums are a nightmare. These days I find I am responding less and less, unless it is to people who clearly want some aid. Those who are just moaning, do not want to listen. I have often tried to correct people's misconceptions, but most do not want to listen. There is also a large number of people who have the idea that everything they see that is "wrong" is a bug, and never themselves. It is difficult to reason in this situation, as anything that suggests that they can do something to help themselves is met with a screech of fanboy, fanboy.

On a different note, the problem we all face when everyone is screaming about bug this and bug that is that most are not bugs. I browse through the feedback thread or bug forums shows a host of things where people are blaming losing, or not scoring, or an injury on a bug. From a sample size of 1, mostly. This is bad because it introduces so much noise that some of the actual bugs will get lost in it.

At least silly season will calm down now the game is out, and we can go back to relative normality.

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Another example: AI always (at least in last 10 editing) fail to replicate the strikers' goal ratio of real. 

If you look at Messi, he scored only quite the half of real life.

If I'd be in to a good conspiracy, I'd argue SI have done this on Purpose and from their experience, which is: Every time the AI is able to do something the user isn't, it must be either a bug or the AI CHEATING!!!!1 Be it transfering Players at lower Prices, ever scoring Goal off few shots (sigh) -- or getting Messi to score a shi**on. Considering that users have already been reporting how their strikers would barely score in weeks/months on FM 20... It's been demonstrated quite oftenly though that not merely is the human Manager capable typically of getti Messi to score at his real life rates -- he even gets lesser Forwards to score About as frequently (never raised as a possible issue to investigate of Course). 

So in Reply to the OP: One man's "issue" is another man's "delight" (and vice versa). Football (Manager) is a funny old game.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by Svenc

[waldywaldy]

5 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

I've written a training thread for FM20 like I did last year, but probably won't put it up, just don't need the aggro. 

I hope you have a change of heart on this

 

I've always enjoyed an appreciated your thoughts and insights when it comes to the game

[CFuller]

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I wonder if this will descend into the very thing the OP wants to escape.

I am with you on this, a lot of the time these forums are a nightmare. These days I find I am responding less and less, unless it is to people who clearly want some aid. Those who are just moaning, do not want to listen. I have often tried to correct people's misconceptions, but most do not want to listen. There is also a large number of people who have the idea that everything they see that is "wrong" is a bug, and never themselves. It is difficult to reason in this situation, as anything that suggests that they can do something to help themselves is met with a screech of fanboy, fanboy.

On a different note, the problem we all face when everyone is screaming about bug this and bug that is that most are not bugs. I browse through the feedback thread or bug forums shows a host of things where people are blaming losing, or not scoring, or an injury on a bug. From a sample size of 1, mostly. This is bad because it introduces so much noise that some of the actual bugs will get lost in it.

At least silly season will calm down now the game is out, and we can go back to relative normality.

This has been pretty much my experience for the past year or so. I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to answer somebody's complaints, only to be abused, called a "fanboy", or accused of trolling. Some people simply will not accept, for example:

• Losing a match 1-0 when your team had 35 shots and the opposition had 1 isn't being "FMed". These results happen in real-life football and can be down to various reasons.
• Not every player you encounter on FM is a moody hormonal 14-year-old who thinks the whole world is against them. Treat them with respect, and they'll do likewise.
• FM is an incredibly complex game, so bugs are a fact of life - and bugs aren't necessarily as quick and/or easy to fix as you might suspect.

At times, General Discussion really does feel more like one of those toxic politics arguments on Twitter. And sometimes - and I certainly don't want any mods to take this personally - the situation feels hopeless because some of the most abhorrent comments and 'discussions' aren't nipped in the bud quickly enough.

Indeed, this situation has even become so bad that I rage-quit the forums - twice. So I completely understand how @99 is feeling right now.

I've now decided that I simply won't post in General Discussion as often as I used to. I also won't waste any more time with any users who show a complete lack of respect for the developers and/or other users. After all, that's what the Ignored Users settings are for.

Edited November 20, 2019 by CFuller

[sporadicsmiles]

2 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Losing a match 1-0 when your team had 35 shots and the opposition had 1 isn't being "FMed"

I spent an entire season with Hamburg FM-ing the AI like this (although not to the tune of 35 shots, if the AI has 35 shots you will lose by a lot).

I wish we had a "common misconceptions" thread somewhere that was stickied, with some links to a discussion on how to remedy this particular problem.

4 minutes ago, CFuller said:

I've now decided that I simply won't post in General Discussion as often as I used to. I also won't waste any more time with any users who show a complete lack of respect for the developers and/or other users. After all, that's what the Ignored Users settings are for.

Agreed on that. These days I am more than happy to comment, I will just not engage in discussion with anyone who is clearly being antagonistic. I simply post my opinions, clarify if asked nicely, and move on. It is the issue with any forum though, so this is not a dig at SI, the mods, or the community in general. I interact frequently with a good number of nice, courteous and knowledgeable people here.

[dannysheard]

Is this the right place to mention that penalties are still broken? #toosoon

Edited November 20, 2019 by dannysheard

[Svenc]

5 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I spent an entire season with Hamburg FM-ing the AI like this (although not to the tune of 35 shots, if the AI has 35 shots you will lose by a lot).

Usually depends on what those shots are like (and should btw), which is the issue. Rather than turning the game into a battle of who's had the most x of y (I can just see Pep logging on to Whoscored to check from the shot data how well City had played… ); I've been trying to frustrate Opposition ever since my first release. That only works for as Long as they're still attacking, mind.

 

(SPOILER: On FM it's Always been possible to spam even SOT with a poor Ratio of conversion, as attempts from the set piece can pile up this high -- e.g. headers under pressure from a cross lumped into a stacked box, mostly saved and pick up by the keeper, and similar). 

#1
#2

#3
#4

That said, Football results against an actual run of Play are legion. Which is inherent to its rules leading to a) Ultra low Points and b) barely a bigger Point lead even by the superior Team of two or more. If this is to be a sim (and it's trying to be), Managing Matches isn't About Managing shot Counts. It's About managing the spaces available on the pitch. Germany's (by far the most shots in all of the Group stages) Opposition at last years WC conceded the "shot battle" by tactical choice (and increased the Chance of scoring by doing such). The AI on this game does this too every time it Drops off to spoil: it's a deliberate choice to decrease the likelyhood of conceding easily.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Svenc

[FrazT]

@dannysheard  No its not and this issue has been addressed in the latest hotfix

To all the others-

This is not the place for another tactics discussion/argument , given the tone of the OP.

[99]

I'm a bit surprised with the response my post had, and I say this in a very positive way. I appreciate all of your answers, and I mean all, even those who disagree or think I was a bit melodramatic (maybe I was, not even arguing).

Honestly, thank you all. I'll be back to the forums for sure, I just need to "escape" a bit. I'm not trying to draw any attention, just to share my feelings about a substancial amount of conversation's tone that we see here, and that (in my opinion) really doesn't help to enjoy the game in full. And that's all I want, and all we all want, for that I'm sure. 

Enjoy and see you soon!

Edited November 20, 2019 by 99

[FrazT]

Enjoy your break.