The FM21 Youth Academy Challenge

[OlivierL]

@darren1983 for the OP : Belgium date to save is -+ 1/3/21 . if u save later , u always get the same teams on 30/6.

[XaW]

Season 2025 - OBOS-ligaen (tier 2) - 4th season

We had an excellent season this time around with our new 4-4-2 variant. We score loads of goals, but leak quite a bit as well, but I don't mind as long as we keep on winning most of the games. This time I had the chance of winning the league, but fell just short of the top, and the 2nd promotion spot as well. A 3rd place was enough to put us into the playoffs though. In the semi final we beat Sandefjord without much issue. In the playoff final we beat Kongsvinger 4-1, including 3(!) pens, so I guess paying of the ref works like a charm! So, promoted, right? Nope, not in Norway, after winning the playoff final, we went into the playoff against the 3rd lowest team in the top tier. In the two legged affair we beat Sandnes Ulf 2-1 at home, and lost with the same away so it went to pens. We missed two times, but Sandnes Ulf did the same. And we followed each other for a while, and it didn't end before we missed out 8th penalty while they scored. I guess this is as close to a promotion it's possible to get, so hopefully we can do it next season.

Transfers | Youth Preview | Youth Intake

A really good intake with some good talents. I'm still trying to go professional, so I haven't asked as much as I could for upgrades, but I'm thinking I might just do it now, since the board always refuses to go pro.

Key players: Ernest Rzepecki, Nasri Stubberud 23a & Einar Andersen 23f

Youth players of note: Kwame Asante-Taylor 25c, Adrian Grythaugen 25a & Oscar Rosvoll 23d

[lloyd_doyley]

At the close of the 2023/4 season, my third with Bonnyrigg Ross Athletic, I am unsure of whether I am making progress or not!

We finished eighth in the league, and despite fewer points than last season we felt much more consistent. We were never in danger of getting dragged to the relegation spot at the bottom of the table. Based on the last few seasons, it seems like mid-50s points will get us a playoff spot, and mid-60s could be enough for automatic promotion. Both are possible with a few improvements to the side.

But big improvements to the side could be a challenge with our existing facilities! We seem to be permanently treading water financially despite me barely spending a penny on wages (I use less than 50% of the budget), and our facilities are the worst in the league. It feels like I need a few really good cup draws to bring in some revenue to drive some improvements, the board are refusing to help at all.

Despite this, we have had a couple of really good crops of youngsters come into the club. The most recent sees possibly the best one yet (Luke Barcham - despite a terrifying 1 for determination!), who should form a lethal strike partnership with the striker we received this time last year (Kevin MacLeod - 25 league goals in his first season). There will only be one player my starting XI next season who hasn't come through the academy (a left back), hopefully they will all continue to develop and gel together in matches to make up for our poor facilities.

We appear to have what is hopefully going to develop into a really strong spine of the team which I am really happy with. Goalkeeper, centre backs, centre mids and centre forwards should all be good enough to get a play-off spot. We just need some full backs and wingers to step up and play their part to push us over the line I hope.

[darren1983]

10 minutes ago, XaW said:

Season 2025 - OBOS-ligaen (tier 2) - 4th season

We had an excellent season this time around with our new 4-4-2 variant. We score loads of goals, but leak quite a bit as well, but I don't mind as long as we keep on winning most of the games. This time I had the chance of winning the league, but fell just short of the top, and the 2nd promotion spot as well. A 3rd place was enough to put us into the playoffs though. In the semi final we beat Sandefjord without much issue. In the playoff final we beat Kongsvinger 4-1, including 3(!) pens, so I guess paying of the ref works like a charm! So, promoted, right? Nope, not in Norway, after winning the playoff final, we went into the playoff against the 3rd lowest team in the top tier. In the two legged affair we beat Sandnes Ulf 2-1 at home, and lost with the same away so it went to pens. We missed two times, but Sandnes Ulf did the same. And we followed each other for a while, and it didn't end before we missed out 8th penalty while they scored. I guess this is as close to a promotion it's possible to get, so hopefully we can do it next season.

Transfers | Youth Preview | Youth Intake

A really good intake with some good talents. I'm still trying to go professional, so I haven't asked as much as I could for upgrades, but I'm thinking I might just do it now, since the board always refuses to go pro.

Key players: Ernest Rzepecki, Nasri Stubberud 23a & Einar Andersen 23f

Youth players of note: Kwame Asante-Taylor 25c, Adrian Grythaugen 25a & Oscar Rosvoll 23d

83 goals from your front 2 and you don't get promoted? Sort that defence out mate!  

Well done on the progress so far though

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, darren1983 said:

83 goals from your front 2 and you don't get promoted? Sort that defence out mate!  

Well done on the progress so far though

Yeah, I do have a "let us see who can score most" tactic going on, but everyone of my tactics have been like that so far, and this have given me most success, so I don't mind, even if Italian coaches from the '90s are crying in the corner watching my games! I hope I can push for a promotion next season though.

Edited November 15, 2020 by XaW
horrible grammar is now slightly less horrible

[darren1983]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Yeah, I do have a "let us see who can score most" tactic going on, but everyone of my tactics have been like that so far, and this have given me most success, so I don't mind, even if Italian coaches from the '90s are crying in the corner watching my games! I hope I can push for a promotion next season though.

Just gonna call you this thread's answer to Kevin Keegan then  

[OlivierL]

24 minutes ago, darren1983 said:

83 goals from your front 2 and you don't get promoted? Sort that defence out mate!  

Well done on the progress so far though

haha , 83 goals is amazing @XaW

[OlivierL]

Still didn't decide with who i'm going to start.. and the weekend is almost over.

The guys that started with a spanish team with this challenge, didn't u had the issue that your squad was almost empty because of the reset date at 7 july ? If that wasn't the case i would have started already.

And i'm thinking about Belgium (but can't find kits for fourth tier) or off course.. England.

[filipefm20]

1 minute ago, OlivierL said:

Still didn't decide with who i'm going to start.. and the weekend is almost over.

The guys that started with a spanish team with this challenge, didn't u had the issue that your squad was almost empty because of the reset date at 7 july ? If that wasn't the case i would have started already.

And i'm thinking about Belgium (but can't find kits for fourth tier) or off course.. England.

There was squads with 7 or 8 players. I choose the one with the most players, it had 19. Not great and had to play a lot of players out of position but it's working well, not been fired and i'm already in April

[uroszila]

I wonder guys, how are you handling the training for your first and youth team? Are the schedules handled by your assistants or are you planning them by yourself?

I'm comming from the 'Touch' world so this is completely new for me, therefore, it would be nice to get some tips and tricks from you.

[scarp]

@uroszila Definitely do them yourself! Try to find some tutorials on the internet and you will get the grasp of it in no time I am sure! 

[Padders]

Sacked for the 6th time

[OlivierL]

1 hour ago, OlivierL said:

Still didn't decide with who i'm going to start.. and the weekend is almost over.

The guys that started with a spanish team with this challenge, didn't u had the issue that your squad was almost empty because of the reset date at 7 july ? If that wasn't the case i would have started already.

And i'm thinking about Belgium (but can't find kits for fourth tier) or off course.. England.

@darren1983 @XaW nothing i can 'legaly' do about the 7 july reset date from spain ? The team i want to choose has 5 real players left,  7 'older' newgens and 6 youth intake newgens.

Edited November 15, 2020 by OlivierL

[Bartrcm]

I think the step up went very well. The 2 teams that were promoted last season are in 1th and 2nd place. Half way the season we are the unpredicted leaders.

Probably jinxed it now.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Bartrcm

[darren1983]

10 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

@darren1983 @XaW nothing i can 'legaly' do about the 7 july reset date from spain ? The team i want to choose has 5 real players left,  7 'older' newgens and 6 youth intake newgens.

No I don't think there is as can't add new manager till the reset and by then it's too late. Seems like it's just one of tose annoying quirks this challenge throws up at times  

[OlivierL]

1 minute ago, darren1983 said:

No I don't think there is as can't add new manager till the reset and by then it's too late. Seems like it's just one of tose annoying quirks this challenge throws up at times  

Yes , no go for me  maybe next season.  I have a team in a 'smaller' nation but can't find their kits.. and Engeland is also always an option but can't decide who (FC United of Worthing or Merthyr with the Welsh newgens). I'm reading and posting a lot here this year.. because i love the challenge but i'm the only one that almost played.. nothing  

Edited November 15, 2020 by OlivierL

[darren1983]

2 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

Yes , no go for me  maybe next season.  I have a team in a 'smaller' nation but can't find their kits.. and Engeland is also always an option but can't decide who (FC United of Worthing or Merthyr with the Welsh newgens). I'm reading and posting a lot here this year.. because i love the challenge but i'm the only one that almost played.. nothing  

I know what you mean though, it's hard for me to find the "right" club to play with, I need a story or connection to whoever I manage on this challenge so when you find a side that fits and then they can't really be played it's a real save ruiner  

[OlivierL]

Just now, darren1983 said:

I know what you mean though, it's hard for me to find the "right" club to play with, I need a story or connection to whoever I manage on this challenge so when you find a side that fits and then they can't really be played it's a real save ruiner  

agreed ! and it still hurts that i 'had' to stop with Belenenses.. i could have continued but the season ticket bug spoiled it and their very expensive (and impressive) facilities gave would kill our finances. I want to play with a smaller team in a big nation.. Engeland = lower league / semi prof teams.  Italia and Germany = some big teams in third division. France (nobody is playing with a french team, don't know why ?) maybe ? and Spain and Portugal have their 4th tier or reset date issues.. then we have Holland or Belgium but Holland only two division and Belgium too small.

[keeper#1]

2 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

agreed ! and it still hurts that i 'had' to stop with Belenenses.. i could have continued but the season ticket bug spoiled it and their very expensive (and impressive) facilities gave would kill our finances. I want to play with a smaller team in a big nation.. Engeland = lower league / semi prof teams.  Italia and Germany = some big teams in third division. France (nobody is playing with a french team, don't know why ?) maybe ? and Spain and Portugal have their 4th tier or reset date issues.. then we have Holland or Belgium but Holland only two division and Belgium too small.

I've always had a hard time holding on to coaches in the French league.  They all want too much money even the staff I inherit with the club.

[metallimuse]

Sacked at the end of my third year for being relegated. A dreadful season and I can't find a tactic that works for me yet.

The missus has chosen Argentina for my next attempt so I'm just simming now to get my new team.

[filipefm20]

Decent first season. Board expected me to get top half, managed to get 7th with a squad of 19 playes (only 2 centre backs and 2 full backs and 4 or 5 silver star players pllaying more than 15 games). First intake was preety good so next season should be easier.

Best youngster: 

Edited November 15, 2020 by filipefm20

[metallimuse]

Take two...

[Padders]

Here we go again

[Diego D10S]

      

                                                            Season 2021 / 2022

                       7th in Serie C Group A - Knocked out in Playoff Semi Final

                         Leauge Table            Transfer History             Youth Intake

 

Great first season, knocked out 4 teams in the playoff but that only got me to the semi final. Only 1 of 27 teams get out of that playoff so its a hard one.

Youth intake was really bad, signed 4 players but not anyone that will have any future in the senior squad.

Hoping to keep the players I have and aiming for a playoff spot again.

 

GL ALL !!  

 

[keeper#1]

South Shields February 2022 Update

Things are a slowly slipping away from us.  Still in the playoff mix.

[OrToDaRy282]

Sacked mid-season. Take 2 in Argentina!

[Bubbles_DK]

Season 1 - 2021/2022

 

First season is completed and I was really impressed with how the season went. But first here is my manager profil from the beginning of the challenge.

We impressed everybody with our offensive 4-4-2 wing play, but unfortunatelty it wasn't enough to push for promotion. We ended up at 4 place and was seeded to end up at 10th. Nothing really to report about in the danish cup. 

The youth intake preview was promising and the intake was okay (I guess).  We signed the lot with Søren Jensen leading the intake.

We need to develop som youngsters, so we will proberly have to fight in the relgation battle in the coming season.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Bubbles_DK

[shaunvamos]

NK Belišće 2022/23 Season Review

 

 

 

 

Ivan Lackovic - Luka Agatic - Blagojce Cvetanoski 1A - Antonio Rosandic

 

A brilliant second season! We more than consolidated our position in the league, especially considering we were still expected to finish dead last. Also managed a Cup quarter final before bowing out to Hajduk 2-0. If we hold on to everybody there's no reason why we can't do better next year.

 

Youth Intake

 

Vladimir Markovic 2A - Jerko Ban 2B - Sinisa Tomasevic 2C

 

Not as strong an intake as the first one in terms of immediate impact, but there's plenty of potential there. I managed to get a coaching and recruitment upgrade too, so next year's intake should be excellent. I'm also on my second coaching course too!

 

Transfers

 

Progress

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by shaunvamos

[jmonfu]

Got sacked in Austria with SV Austria Salsburg, some big heads to manager there, ended turning against me.

Off to Belarus with Dnepr Mogilev

[scarp]

Brora Rangers 2029/30

Not very happy with the season, we are stuck and not progressing anywhere. I have no idea what happens when MacRae & Morrison retire, I guess we will find out. We just started the facilities upgrade so hopefully next intake might be better, also upgraded junior coaching. This was a very long season and I am kind of exhausted after not being able to defend for nine seasons in a row. Basically we have to play attacking football and hope that once in a while we outscore them because if we try to defend we just get hammered without having any shots on their goal. We also can't afford the relegation as it would ruin us financially. Still nowhere near close to professional status and I think that's what stops my regens from reaching their potential.

Transfers | Youth in-take

Key players: Jamie Stephen, Millar Gamble & Kieran Ogg

Youth watch: Declan Ure, Gavin Herbert & Sam Weir

[XaW]

14 minutes ago, jmonfu said:

Got sacked in Austria with SV Austria Salsburg, some big heads to manager there, ended turning against me.

Off to Belarus with Dnepr Mogilev

Just a heads up, in FM20 there was something about that club, I can't remember exactly, but I think they were not allowed to get promoted, or play in Europe or something. Not sure if it's fixed or not, but thought I'd mention it!

[Maikol]

 

JS Hercules 22-23

Wasn't home during the weekend and because of technical difficulties couldn't remotely connect to my home pc to stream my save so had to take the weekend off. However the wait was worth it. Was Predicted to finish bottom by a mile but we got 5th! missed out on europa conference qualifiers on GD tho  Got another "Golden" intake too and upto excellent Junior Coaching now also. Finances also are in a better place now that we get TV money and sponsorships have increased significantly. I do think next season is also going to be a massive struggle as we shithoused alot of wins and i doubt we can keep doing it every game.

Not a bad prospect either.

-Finance Summary

-Overall Finances

-Transfers

 

[XaW]

Also, a little heads up as to why I rate personalities as much as I do. Take a look at the progress of two players, who are both good.

Nasri Stubberud 23a - The beast I posted earlier. He is Unambitious and this is his changes since he came through:

So, a drop or no change in most. A slight increase of Determination (due to squad influence) and 1 up in stamina. That's it, he is not getting better even if he plays most matches. He still performs, but that is because of his initial talent, not training and improving. So let's compare with a person with a good personality!

Einar Andersen 23f - Came through at the same time as the kid above, but he has a "Resolute" personality. Not the best, but still a good one. Here is his changes:

While he wasn't as highly rated as Stubberud, he has had a major increase in attributes all over the board. Physicals are excellent while the rest are also good. A slight downturn in Determination, but once again due to squad influence pulling the outliers towards the middle.

Suddenly Stubberud doesn't look like he is so much better than Andersen any more.

Just to refresh, he wasn't nearly as highly rated when he came through, but now he is rated as our best defender by far.

[scarp]

@XaW yeah, personalities are alpha and omega in this challenge.

[benrollo]

That's a really good point, and has inspired me to pick up a HoYD with a more professional personality!

[shaunvamos]

33 minutes ago, XaW said:

Just a heads up, in FM20 there was something about that club, I can't remember exactly, but I think they were not allowed to get promoted, or play in Europe or something. Not sure if it's fixed or not, but thought I'd mention it!

They couldn't play in Europe, I spent 15 years invested in the challenge there and when that happened it took a lot out of me 

[XaW]

26 minutes ago, shaunvamos said:

They couldn't play in Europe, I spent 15 years invested in the challenge there and when that happened it took a lot out of me 

Yeah, that's it. I could vaguely remember something like that about the club, but couldn't remember who it was, sorry!

[benrollo]

Time for a catch up - I've played 2 seasons since the last update (lazy Sundays are the best).

Youth Players
Let's start with the departures.

Lars Erik Bergum Hansen 22-4 has moved again since his transfer to Rosenborg. He moved to Kristiansund as part of a player exchange deal worth about the same as Rosenborg paid us. That netted us about £150k in sell on fees which was very welcome!

Lars Elvsveen 24-1 is a cautionary tale for me. He came straight into the starting lineup after graduating from the academy, but very early on he had clubs sniffing around. This meant I couldn't sign him to another contract, so had to cash in on him eventually. From now on I'm offering a max length contract with 3 year club option to all my graduates! He went to Valarenga for £70k and a 50% of next sale clause, which I'm hoping nets us some decent money.

On the arrivals front, we're starting to see a step up in quality of our new graduates after committing a lot of money to our youth set up.

Emil Sannes 25-8, Erik Fjeldstad 25-9 and Christian Kvitblik 25-2 all played 25+ games for us in the 2025 season. All three have clubs sniffing around, with Fjeldstad being in particularly high demand. 13 out of the 16 teams in the Eliteserien are after him!

From the 2026 graduate class, Lars Wøien Stø 26-1 and Svein Kåre Bodøgård 26-2 are already looking like they can play league games for us.

Facilities & Finance
As mentioned above, our youth set up is really impressive. We have Exceptional junior coaching along with Excellent youth recruitment. Our facilities are still Below Average for both training and youth sadly. The set-up is costing us an absolute fortune, and we're currently about £700k in debt. This is pretty much entirely due to youth costs - our total expenditure last season was around £2.7m, and Youth Setup costs came to £1.9m!

League Performance
We've had two seasons in the First Division. In 2024, we managed to stay up with a cushion of 5 points, but we conceded loads of goals. Despite the -21 goal difference, our keeper Martin Eggen was our best player. In order for us to sneak wins we had to rely on him making loads of saves, which he managed to do on enough occasions to get us to safety.

My goal in 2025 was to tighten up at the back, whilst also playing a high press game that would hopefully force teams into mistakes. We managed to improve to a 9th place finish, with a much better -3 goal difference. Once again, Eggen was our best player, but he was certainly helped by a couple of our youth graduates playing at the back. Martin Lafton got most of our goals, despite not being a particularly good player. I'm hoping Wøien Stø can step up at centre forward before long.

My Profile
Here is my history. I'm now up to a National A license, but I don't expect to be able to improve on that until we can find close to a million quid to clear our debt!

[jmonfu]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

Just a heads up, in FM20 there was something about that club, I can't remember exactly, but I think they were not allowed to get promoted, or play in Europe or something. Not sure if it's fixed or not, but thought I'd mention it!

Oh Thanks Xaw.................any idea how I can check before diving in?  TBH with this Beta edition, I am lucky if I manage to not get sacked in the first season!  I am finding it much harder than last year so far

[jmonfu]

1 hour ago, shaunvamos said:

They couldn't play in Europe, I spent 15 years invested in the challenge there and when that happened it took a lot out of me 

Is it just this club (Dnepr Mogilev) in Belarus or all of them?  If just this club I will get another promoted one in Belarus.  

[sc91]

17 hours ago, darren1983 said:

I know what you mean though, it's hard for me to find the "right" club to play with, I need a story or connection to whoever I manage on this challenge so when you find a side that fits and then they can't really be played it's a real save ruiner  

The additional of the Romanian Third League makes it's hard for me this year. Favourite club is not available, so really struggling to find something else to sink my teeth into.

[scarp]

@benrollo Fantastic progress! Now hopefully you establish as middle tier club in First Division and go from there. Your youth players looks fantastic, keep up the good work.

[benrollo]

10 minutes ago, scarp said:

@benrollo Fantastic progress! Now hopefully you establish as middle tier club in First Division and go from there. Your youth players looks fantastic, keep up the good work.

Cheers Scarp! I'm having a really good time with this save, can't believe I haven't tried this challenge before! Fingers crossed some of your youngsters step up and keep you in the Champo!

[collindinho]

2 hours ago, shaunvamos said:

They couldn't play in Europe, I spent 15 years invested in the challenge there and when that happened it took a lot out of me 

This; and I haven't tried this challenge since! 

IIRC it's something to do with them being dissolved and re-forming under the same name, but joining with another team.

[jmonfu]

4 minutes ago, collindinho said:

This; and I haven't tried this challenge since! 

IIRC it's something to do with them being dissolved and re-forming under the same name, but joining with another team.

Hmmm good to know cheers

[scarp]

Brora Rangers 2030/31

\

Pretty good season. No relegation drama this time around. MacRae & Morrison are slowly getting worse and worse.. We need to find new strikers to replace them. I liked the youth in-take very much this time around, hopefully some future starters in there! Also doing a little bit of rehaul as I am letting go three midfielders who were influential members with unambitious personalities. Lets see how it goes next year.

Transfers | Youth in-take

Key players: Jamie Stephen, Millar Gamble & Kieran Ogg

Youth watch: Dougie Doig, Ethan Rae & Robert McLeod

[thomas_e]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

Also, a little heads up as to why I rate personalities as much as I do. Take a look at the progress of two players, who are both good.

Nasri Stubberud 23a - The beast I posted earlier. He is Unambitious and this is his changes since he came through:

So, a drop or no change in most. A slight increase of Determination (due to squad influence) and 1 up in stamina. That's it, he is not getting better even if he plays most matches. He still performs, but that is because of his initial talent, not training and improving. So let's compare with a person with a good personality!

Einar Andersen 23f - Came through at the same time as the kid above, but he has a "Resolute" personality. Not the best, but still a good one. Here is his changes:

While he wasn't as highly rated as Stubberud, he has had a major increase in attributes all over the board. Physicals are excellent while the rest are also good. A slight downturn in Determination, but once again due to squad influence pulling the outliers towards the middle.

Suddenly Stubberud doesn't look like he is so much better than Andersen any more.

Just to refresh, he wasn't nearly as highly rated when he came through, but now he is rated as our best defender by far.

 

I couldnt agree more and this is probably overlooked. When I took over Sacachispas we didn't have a HOYD. The first thing i filtered when looking for one was personality. "Determined" or "Fairly Determined" are my preferred ones. For me it's a lot more important than attributes. Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone that matched, so had to go with Professional. 

On my Cottbus save I got some major talents with low determination. They went from potential wonderkids to being released from the U19 team a few years later, not getting a single game for the club. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by thomas_e

[thomas_e]

Such great fun reading the updates so far! It's a challenge that almost becomes a cult. Once you're in, there is no escaping! The more people that play this challenge the better! 

[XaW]

1 hour ago, jmonfu said:

Oh Thanks Xaw.................any idea how I can check before diving in?  TBH with this Beta edition, I am lucky if I manage to not get sacked in the first season!  I am finding it much harder than last year so far

I'm not sure to be honest. When the editor comes out you can probably check it, but I would be careful to put too much time into it, but you are of course free to do as you like. Simply a friendly warning of something that could be ruining for this challenge.

1 minute ago, thomas_e said:

I couldnt agree more and this is probably overlooked. When I took over Sacachispas we didn't have a HOYD. The first thing i filtered when looking for one was personality. "Determined" or "Fairly Determined" are my preferred ones. For me it's a lot more important than attributes. Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone that matched, so had to go with Professional. 

On my Cottbus save I got some major talents with low determination. They went from potential wonderkids to being released from the U19 team a few years later, not getting a single game for the club. 

Hmm... guess we have a slightly different take. I love Professionality, but I also value Determination, so I look for professionals with a high Determination score, since it's visible. Determined or Fairly Determined is just how high their Determination score is, so I value the hidden ones higher since I can live with 13 Determination (The lowest score for F.Det if I'm not wrong) and a Professional personality.

I'm still relying on this thread though, and I know there are some changes to it, but I don't think they are too massive. I haven't seen any more recent one that are that complete.

[thomas_e]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Hmm... guess we have a slightly different take. I love Professionality, but I also value Determination, so I look for professionals with a high Determination score, since it's visible. Determined or Fairly Determined is just how high their Determination score is, so I value the hidden ones higher since I can live with 13 Determination (The lowest score for F.Det if I'm not wrong) and a Professional personality.

I'm still relying on this thread though, and I know there are some changes to it, but I don't think they are too massive. I haven't seen any more recent one that are that complete.

Maybe I should out some more time into experimenting, as I haven't focused on determination as an attribute, only personality. 

But both strategies have served us both well I guess!