When will si releases news from the FM 25?

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Brodie21 said:

Know you're a wise fox & thought you may be able to put me straight 

Haha, well, I don't know anything, so everything I say is just guesswork, but I can't see why anyone should be forced to play or load any league they don't want to. So I would assume you would load up any nations as normal and just add the men's or women's as you would say England and Spain in FM24. Of course, it could be England is all of England, but they don't do that with the league structure now, so I don't see why this would change personally. But who knows really.

Personally I would think it could be fun to load both leagues and set a challenge to win the champions league with both the women's and the men's team for the same club in the same save, for example. I can see a lot of fun things around it, but it would have to be different enough to notice, but not too different like another game... I think that's the most difficult balancing act for SI to get right.

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, XaW сказал:

Not sure why you expect me to know

 

В 24.06.2024 в 23:50, XaW сказал:

My sources say... ah... I don't have any sources. 

I didn't understand this moment either. Literally the only person on the topic who has no sources  

[XaW]

9 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

 

I didn't understand this moment either. Literally the only person on the topic who has no sources  

Hey, I'm at least being honest here!  

[Chooxen]

I think there's three main concerns here.

First, the UI is big and blocky and unwieldy. It does look like it's made to align with the UI of the mobile version, which is a mistake. On a PC, we need to have the information presented as concisely as possible to avoid lots of scrolling and clicking. Presenting information in big boxes rather than spreadsheets is not useful to us. We need a UI that is - above anything else - concise, navigable and customisable. 

Second, women's football being included in the same database as the men's game is liable to be a nuisance. If not separated out from the men's game, you're going to find yourself clicking on results, players, competitions etc that are not relevant because you can never sign any of the players nor compete against any of the teams. To all intents and purposes, it's like including cricket teams in the same database. If loaded together, they need to be separated out in a way that requires you, at a bare minimum, to switch between men's and women's games.

Third, the removal of features simply because a) they are underutilised or b) because they do not function well suggests a race to the bottom in terms of functionality. Why not simply improve these systems? How difficult is it really to fix the player shout system to make it function in a clearer way? Why remove these features but not other features that are more commonly complained about, such as player interactions or press conferences? It suggests to me that it's all but inevitable that any system that is currently broken will be removed rather than fixed. 

Other changes such as to the graphics and match engine we haven't seen enough yet to judge, but I think there's plenty in this announcement to cause concern about the direction of the game.

[Zek]

The removal of features makes me worry they're going to be reintroduced in a later version, only to then be marketed as a NEW feature instead of a 'returning but improved' feature. The FIFA'ing/EA FC'ing of FM.

And personally I'm excited about trying out women's football, but I agree it's unnecessary bloat to one's save file if they have no interest in playing the women's side at all (or vice versa). There should be an option to turn the other side off, like a way of being able to select separate men's and women's leagues and the other side not in your game at all if no leagues from that side are selected. Until the moment the player chooses to add a women's league via the Add/Remove Leagues button, obviously.
Or maybe as a compromise remove all the people and transfer activity from the other side and you're only able to see the competition's past winners, like FM already treats unplayable leagues. I can't imagine this kind of data takes up much space in a save file, I think most of the bloat of a save file is because of all the people, transfer activity and all the simulated matches. I'll admit I don't know how much, if anything at all, of this last statement is true.

[gunner86]

3 hours ago, Chooxen said:

Third, the removal of features simply because a) they are underutilised or b) because they do not function well suggests a race to the bottom in terms of functionality. Why not simply improve these systems? How difficult is it really to fix the player shout system to make it function in a clearer way? Why remove these features but not other features that are more commonly complained about, such as player interactions or press conferences? It suggests to me that it's all but inevitable that any system that is currently broken will be removed rather than fixed. 

Because it takes resource to make improvements. If there is stuff in there that isn’t used, and stuff like shouts - which is easy enough to lift out without impacting a reasonable amount of people at all - which has never worked as it was meant to, that can be taken out, then this frees up resource that would be use on these parts of the game to be repurposed to  other areas of the game, where there have been problems for a long time, but that a much higher percentage of players actually use. I’d much rather they made the stuff they’re keeping work properly, coherently and immersive, than use create a club - which is far better done in the editor anyway, or play a challenge. The only feature they’re removing I’ve used is shouts, and I don’t use those that often anyway, and a lot of it can be circumvented to a degree by changing instructions anyway. 
 

It really is far too early to be making any judgement on the game when all we’ve seen is a load of words, 2 screen mock ups, and a bunch of mocked up tiles and cards.

[santy001]

I would half expect that when you select down to a certain tier in a league it selects the accompanying level of women's football down to that tier as well. Makes sense to an extent if you have England down to tier 5 you have that applying to both the male/female sides of the game although there is likely to be less tiers on the female side of the game. 

I don't imagine SI are going to force you to use substantial overheads through enforcing a detail level on leagues you don't play in. Most of the FM playerbase don't pay much attention to their detail levels set anyhow. But this is the bulk of processing time can be added/lost. 

When it comes to returning elements in the future which no doubt come with some new integration, extra functionality or finally working to a point SI are happy with - that will be promoted as a positive. No escaping that. In part because it needs to be mentioned just so people are aware, but it's the games industry, everything gets mentioned these days. I doubt these things will be painted as life-changing aspects of football. I'll be more worried if something like Create-a-Club returns only as part of a £115 Ubisoft style premium release.

[Brodie21]

15 minutes ago, santy001 said:

I would half expect that when you select down to a certain tier in a league it selects the accompanying level of women's football down to that tier as well. Makes sense to an extent if you have England down to tier 5 you have that applying to both the male/female sides of the game although there is likely to be less tiers on the female side of the game. 

 

Not it would make a jot of interest to SI - understandably, but if that's the case, after playing from the very first version, sadly FM24 would be my last

[XV20]

I myself am a bit suprised that we couldn't see what the actual home-page looks like and player profile. The 3D match engine screenshots can come in later (not bothered yet but it HAS TO LOOK GOOD). The removal of create-a-club really hit me and i'm sad about it.  Every removal has a reason and i'm sure the devs too are aware and i thought there would be greater explanations rather than a short summary. Happy to hear that women's football is ready to launch in game. Still optimistic about the UI looking decent.

I understand that almost everyone is not happy with the screenshots given but i like it myself because it looks simple and it's easier to just access the information you want from the go.

(My personal opinion)..

[Chooxen]

4 hours ago, gunner86 said:

Because it takes resource to make improvements. If there is stuff in there that isn’t used, and stuff like shouts - which is easy enough to lift out without impacting a reasonable amount of people at all - which has never worked as it was meant to, that can be taken out, then this frees up resource that would be use on these parts of the game to be repurposed to  other areas of the game, where there have been problems for a long time, but that a much higher percentage of players actually use. I’d much rather they made the stuff they’re keeping work properly, coherently and immersive, than use create a club - which is far better done in the editor anyway, or play a challenge. The only feature they’re removing I’ve used is shouts, and I don’t use those that often anyway, and a lot of it can be circumvented to a degree by changing instructions anyway. 
 

It really is far too early to be making any judgement on the game when all we’ve seen is a load of words, 2 screen mock ups, and a bunch of mocked up tiles and cards.

I don't think there's any indication that people don't use shouts. I guarantee you 90%+ players use a shout when the game isn't going their way.

And I don't buy for one second that SI don't have the resources required to fix a system as simple as shouts (not that it's incredibly broken to begin with). SI is a company with 285 permanent employees (not including researchers) and are owned by SEGA. This isn't a two-bit operation. There are multiple systems that are fairly simple and have required work for years. They're prioritising UI and graphical overhauls that aren't required whilst other parts of the game remain borderly dysfunctional.

[Novem9]

We talk a lot about the interface because it needs rethinking for years. But what I also care about is processing speed between days. I would like to think that the new era implies much faster data processing, including for a large database

[gunner86]

3 hours ago, Chooxen said:

I don't think there's any indication that people don't use shouts. I guarantee you 90%+ players use a shout when the game isn't going their way.

And I don't buy for one second that SI don't have the resources required to fix a system as simple as shouts (not that it's incredibly broken to begin with). SI is a company with 285 permanent employees (not including researchers) and are owned by SEGA. This isn't a two-bit operation. There are multiple systems that are fairly simple and have required work for years. They're prioritising UI and graphical overhauls that aren't required whilst other parts of the game remain borderly dysfunctional.

I didn’t say no one uses shouts, I said they are taking out things they know have low usage, and separately shouts, because they know there are people that don’t use them, and those that do use (which includes myself on occasion) aren’t getting the experience SI want to give.

As with every release, the UI and graphics work is done by a completely different team of people, so if you want improvements in areas away from that you need the resource to come from somewhere in the coding team.

If in 3 months time, we’re all sat around wondering what the hell they’ve been doing because nothing else has made any progress, then yeah, they’ll be a queue in the complaints department, but bearing in mind they’ve been working on this release for a couple of years at this point, there’s nothing so far to indicate that’s the case from what we’ve seen.

[dosh]

Has SI conducted a survey of FM users to see if they are in favor of adding women's soccer to the game and dedicating development resources to it?

SI mentioned that there are features targeted for removal because they had less than 10% utilization. However, I doubt there would have been more than 10% in favor of adding women's soccer to the game.

Also they stated that because there is a limited amount of time for development, some features are removed which are not completed perfectly. Would things have been different if the manpower and resources that went into the development of women's soccer had been put into other feature development?

I know that we can't go back because it's already happened. But I hope SI will think about where to prioritize development in the future.

Edited July 1 by dosh

[Mobius]

It’s just gonna be another database isn’t it? Except the players are called Susan of whatever, instead of Clive. If you don’t wanna use it fair enough, but by that logic we might as well remove a lot of leagues few people use as well. Women’s football is popular these days so why not include it, 

feels like people are overreacting to this inclusion in the game, but there’s a whiff of “oh no FM’s gone woke” about the complaints… lads it’s just the same FM game, the little players in the match engine are still going to look rubbish, they’ll just have bigger chests. 

Edited July 1 by Mobius

[XaW]

4 hours ago, dosh said:

Has SI conducted a survey of FM users to see if they are in favor of adding women's soccer to the game and dedicating development resources to it?

SI mentioned that there are features targeted for removal because they had less than 10% utilization. However, I doubt there would have been more than 10% in favor of adding women's soccer to the game.

Also they stated that because there is a limited amount of time for development, some features are removed which are not completed perfectly. Would things have been different if the manpower and resources that went into the development of women's soccer had been put into other feature development?

I know that we can't go back because it's already happened. But I hope SI will think about where to prioritize development in the future.

You could say the same for the draft system in the US, or many other various league specific things they've added. If you don't want to play women's leagues....? Then don't. The same way I don't want to play the Hong Kong league, so I just don't.

I'm not accusing you of sexism, but it's hard to take it any other way when this "why not spend the resources on X?" only comes when it's talk about the women's leagues. This might not be your motive for it, but what else can be understood from it? SI has chosen to implement women's football regardless of what you or I think about it, and that's their choice. Our choice is to either continue buying the series or stop. Simple as that.

SI also said that women's football was added ON TOP of the normal development, so they brought in extra people to focus on the women's side of things. So if anything you should rather be annoyed at the switch to the Unity engine, as that is much more likely to have used up the resources you want for something else. But you focus on the women's league, still hard to understand as anything else than "women bad".

Also, not sure research for the women's leagues and graphical animators working on the women players could be used for that many other features in the game, so it's essentially a moot point anyway.

Just for the record, this is not towards you alone, but there has been so many bad takes recently regarding women's football and trying use the inclusion of it as a crutch to beat SI with and I'm getting sick and tired of it. Unless you have inside knowledge of how SI's research allocation works, I think this type of "I'm just speculating" is bad for a good discussion regarding future versions. If you don't think SI should focus on women's football, then saying "I have no interest in it" is sufficient.

[NineCloudNine]

Even putting to one side the obvious sexism, I dislike all “SI should focus on this not that” arguments. It lets them off too easily. The answer to “this or that” is always “both”. If there isn’t enough developer resource for that, they need to hire more. Accepting that trade-offs based on limited developer time are inevitable helps to make them inevitable.

This is especially true when arguing for existing features to be polished / fixed. This should always happen. There should be no tradeoff between this and adding new things.

[MichaelNevo]

5 hours ago, dosh said:

Has SI conducted a survey of FM users to see if they are in favor of adding women's soccer to the game and dedicating development resources to it?

SI mentioned that there are features targeted for removal because they had less than 10% utilization. However, I doubt there would have been more than 10% in favor of adding women's soccer to the game.

Also they stated that because there is a limited amount of time for development, some features are removed which are not completed perfectly. Would things have been different if the manpower and resources that went into the development of women's soccer had been put into other feature development?

I know that we can't go back because it's already happened. But I hope SI will think about where to prioritize development in the future.

Just throwing my thoughts out there, but maybe they're looking to broaden their target audience? It would be foolish to think every FM player is male, not that im insinuating those are your thoughts. Personally it doesn't interest me, but you can't deny the growth of the women's game in recent years, so again it would be foolish for SI to overlook that, which they haven't.

[grade]

I for one welcome women's football, as long the processing times don't take a hit.

I have a pretty good computer (iMac) but wasn't exactly built for gaming. It is nice that I can play FM on my computer, but there are plenty of people who don't have a state-of-the-art computer, that runs the minimums of this game... and will likely have to upgrade, since there is going to minimum requirement bump with this new Unity stuff.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

Even putting to one side the obvious sexism, I dislike all “SI should focus on this not that” arguments. It lets them off too easily. The answer to “this or that” is always “both”. If there isn’t enough developer resource for that, they need to hire more. Accepting that trade-offs based on limited developer time are inevitable helps to make them inevitable.

This is especially true when arguing for existing features to be polished / fixed. This should always happen. There should be no tradeoff between this and adding new things.

In what world is it that simple? Even with unlimited resources, you can't just go out and talk to a recruiter and a month later many productive developers arrive on your doorstep ready to deliver.  If you manage to find one, it's probably going to be extremely unlikely that they will have the perfect skill-set that means they can hit the ground running and deliver immediately.  You're probably looking at weeks, maybe even months, of getting them to that point.  And from experience, there are companies with vast, almost limitless pots of money that are extremely averse to hiring at this point in time

But let's imagine this unicorn exists and is willing to join.  They'll have a considerable skillset, and they'll working in London, so although it's proper back-of-a-fag-packet calculations, probably not wild to imagine they'd want 100k salary.  SI's main source of income is selling you the game, so to hire that one developer, how many copies do they need to increase by to make that hire worthwhile?  At 50 quid a pop, does hiring that person give you 2000 more sales?  For a niche product where the vast majority who would play it already do buy and play it?  

And then there's the most basic part of all.  In development, more hands doesn't always mean things go quicker.  There's a sweet spot to hit in terms of numbers involved, and it's nowhere near as simple as just adding people to it and you'll definitely deliver more.  I say that from experience.

Although to be fair, your post reads like the attitude a lot of people sitting above development teams have. Doesn't make it particularly realistic though.

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

And then there's the most basic part of all.  In development, more hands doesn't always mean things go quicker.  There's a sweet spot to hit in terms of numbers involved, and it's nowhere near as simple as just adding people to it and you'll definitely deliver more.  I say that from experience.

If it takes a woman 9 months to create a child, it should take 9 women one month to do the same, right? I can't tell you the number of project managers who seems to have this line of thinking I've dealt with!  The diminishing returns on "just hire another developer" is hard to grasp for anyone not being directly involved in the development cycle though...

The size of a development team depends a lot, but we have capped it to 8. Any more, and we split teams up, but that also creates more admin and/or merge conflicts if the admin work is done poorly. Also, it can make testing much harder or increase the test scope too.

And I'm not dumping on @NineCloudNine here, as I understand the want for more, but working in a development team, you make a lot of experiences that isn't easy to get, even if one works close to a development team.

[rp1966]

My take on the addition of women's football is that I see it as a good move from SI. From their point of view it fleshes out the footballing world they are offering players. For people who are already engaged with women's football it offers them the option to play FM as those teams and may bring some new players to the game.

From my point of view as someone who doesn't watch women's football, my questions would be what is going to be added to the FM experience? There is talk of a separate ME for the women's game - so how is that going to affect how I create my tactics - or are relative differences in attributes for women going to mean I can just plug and play my tactic from the men's game.  The other thing is whether the women's leagues are offering any quirks in their structure or rules that create a unique challenge.

I like the idea of trying to win the top prizes with the men's and women's teams of the same club and also the ability to have a journeyman managerial career that moves through both the men's and women's game, so I'll definitely be doing a save that involves the women's game once FM25 arrives.

 

[jimbo22]

Woman's game addition?? whatever, as long as its inclusion is like every other league, I dont want them so dont select them and it has no impact on the way I want to play the game. I have zero interest in the womans game but im one person is a pool of who knows how many players of their game. 

Bigger concerns for me would be press conferences (does anyone really do all of these these days?), the horrible player interaction system. Teams offering the same money 10 different times for a player you've set a certain value on. There's so many things in this game that need work to bring them up to scratch that will have an effect on both mens and womans side of the game. 

[NineCloudNine]

21 hours ago, forameuss said:

In what world is it that simple?

It’s very simple, though it isn’t easy !

I’m aware of the challenges SI have. A lot of them come from a commitment to an annual release which apparently has to contain new features. I’d argue that’s a self-imposed problem for SI, the solution to which is obvious. Others are just the complex nature of development and resource / project management.

My pushback is to players simply assuming that there is a competition for limited resources to be spent on “this or that” without questioning the premise and asking why not both things? It only seems to be in games where this sort of compromise goes unquestioned.

Edited July 2 by NineCloudNine

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

It’s bery simple, though it isn’t easy !

I’m aware of the challenges SI have. A lot of them come from a commitment to an annual release which apparently has to contain new features. I’d argue that’s a self-imposed problem for SI, the solution to which is obvious. Others are just the complex nature of development and resource / project management.

My pushback is to players simply assuming that there is a competition for limited resources to be spent on “this or that” without questioning the premise and asking why not both things? It only seems to be in games where this sort of compromise goes unquestioned.

The competition for resources argument doesn't hold much weight, but not for the reasons you're outlining.  You can't just say "well work on both" for the very reasons outlined.  You have finite resources.  There really is no way around it.

The release cycle is also way overblown.  Do a 4 year cycle without those incremental "major" releases, and compare it to those 4 incremental releases, and I imagine you end up with roughly the same product at the end of it all.  I remember SI having a subscription model for a product.  It was all a bit rubbish.

[NineCloudNine]

19 hours ago, forameuss said:

The competition for resources argument doesn't hold much weight, but not for the reasons you're outlining.  You can't just say "well work on both" for the very reasons outlined.  You have finite resources.  There really is no way around it.

 

For as long as players accept that "there's no way around it" and bicker amongst themselves about where the development focus should lie, then there's no incentive for SI to work better. Of course it is true that resources can never be infinte and are constrained by how much they can sell the game for. But it's also true that in the absence of any competition, there's no incentive for SI and it suits them for these forums to be full of players arguing with each other about feature priority against an assumption of limited and fixed development resource.

I'm trying to imagine a world where my company's customers debate amongst themselves what it is and is not reasonable to ask us to do. It makes me laugh. They demand everything and they don't care about how my company makes it work; if we don't, they'll take their business elsewhere.

Edited July 2 by NineCloudNine

[jimbo22]

24 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

For as long as players accept that "there's no way around it" and bicker amongst themselves about where the development focus should lie, then there's no incentive for SI to work better. Of course it is true that resources can never be infinte and are constrained by how much they can sell the game by. But it's also true that in the absence of any competition, there's no incentive for SI and it suits them for these forums to be full of players arguing with each other about feature priority against an assumption of limited and fixed development resource.

I'm trying to imagine a world where my company's customers debate amongst themselves what it is and is not reasonable to ask us to do. It makes me laugh. They demand everything and they don't care about how my company makes it work; if we don't, they'll take their business elsewhere.

Having been around this community and this game for a long long time. SI will go the direction they want to go. It matters not a jot what waves are happening on their forums. The game has grown over the past 30 years and will likely continue to do so, its a reason SI continue and will continue to do it their own way. 

[grade]

In terms of the resources SI has at its disposal and what they do with its resources, it is their business, that I think we can't have proper opinion... We don't have enough information to formulate an exact opinion. It is all theory, conjecture. Maybe we are allowed to have opinions like: International Football should have been revamped versions ago, instead we had features, that now have been removed.

Maybe they do have the resources to do the women's side of the game, the match engine and the UX/UI side of things for FM25.

Will it be good? I hope so and don't want to think about it if it isn't.

We can comment on what we do know. This announcement isn't an announcement we were promised a year ago. It's a preview, of a preview, of a preview of a design mockup. Sure it sounds nice on paper and in theory, but that is it. Oh, and we removed a few features, due to the player base not playing in them (I loved to see the percentage they have for doing the Press Conferences, as I speculate it isn't among the popular features). That is it.

I think it was a pretty weak blog post, for what was promised.

[XaW]

@armbi - Those types of objectifying women are clearly not ok. That's clearly not something we allow on these forums.

[SPE3D]

On 29/06/2024 at 16:12, santy001 said:

I would half expect that when you select down to a certain tier in a league it selects the accompanying level of women's football down to that tier as well. Makes sense to an extent if you have England down to tier 5 you have that applying to both the male/female sides of the game although there is likely to be less tiers on the female side of the game. 

I don't imagine SI are going to force you to use substantial overheads through enforcing a detail level on leagues you don't play in. Most of the FM playerbase don't pay much attention to their detail levels set anyhow. But this is the bulk of processing time can be added/lost. 

When it comes to returning elements in the future which no doubt come with some new integration, extra functionality or finally working to a point SI are happy with - that will be promoted as a positive. No escaping that. In part because it needs to be mentioned just so people are aware, but it's the games industry, everything gets mentioned these days. I doubt these things will be painted as life-changing aspects of football. I'll be more worried if something like Create-a-Club returns only as part of a £115 Ubisoft style premium release.

That makes no sense at all. I would expect it will remain the same it has always been and you can choose to load the women's leagues if you want to.

[andu1]

The more i look at the UI screens pic from the design files the more Im starting to like them.

It's easy on the eyes with no high contrast colors.

 

[Brother Ben]

On 01/07/2024 at 03:13, dosh said:

Has SI conducted a survey of FM users to see if they are in favor of adding women's soccer to the game and dedicating development resources to it?

I think people like yourself are going to have to let this go and realise that for a progressive developer like SI this was always going to be implemented.

My 9 year old has recently started playing FM and he doesn't distinguish between the mens and women's games.  He was quite confused as to why there wasn't any women's teams in the game already and has plenty of female players on his bedroom wall.  I'd argue kids like him are the future of the game and deserve to be catered for too.  That's without even thinking about new young female players it will attract because they feel represented.

Personally I will definitely give that side of the game a go, it's something new and I like trying new things.

One final point I will mention is that for me Football Management games got me more into football when I was young than the other way around.  The inclusion of womens football in FM could well do the same thing and prove to be mutually beneficial.

[santy001]

7 hours ago, SPE3D said:

That makes no sense at all. I would expect it will remain the same it has always been and you can choose to load the women's leagues if you want to.

It's just my thoughts but to expand upon them a bit more - If you select the 6th Tier in England you get no choice between North/South you get this option:

In Spain if you chose the 3rd tier you get Spanish Federation 1A and 1B, if you pick the 4th tier you get Spanish Federation 2 Groups 1-5. 

Right now the only representation in FM of Tier 1 Football in England is the Premier Division. Once Women's football is added the Tier 1 Leagues would then be English Premier Division/English Women's Super League in the image above. Detail level would be the determining factor in how much of a processing burden it actually adds. Most people don't pay much attention in that area anyway but look at the default settings for England when firing up a quick test save as a Championship club:

The detail level can be set independently for the Vanarama North/South but you cannot just choose one of the leagues to be active.

[phnompenhandy]

On 29/06/2024 at 17:45, Chooxen said:

Second, women's football being included in the same database as the men's game is liable to be a nuisance. If not separated out from the men's game, you're going to find yourself clicking on results, players, competitions etc that are not relevant because you can never sign any of the players nor compete against any of the teams. To all intents and purposes, it's like including cricket teams in the same database. If loaded together, they need to be separated out in a way that requires you, at a bare minimum, to switch between men's and women's games.

I never load up the Brazilian league, and thus get no information about it. I'd imagine it will be like that. You can select ENGLAND men's divisions, women's divisions, men AND women's division as you like.

[grade]

4 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I never load up the Brazilian league, and thus get no information about it. I'd imagine it will be like that. You can select ENGLAND men's divisions, women's divisions, men AND women's division as you like.

The issue here, I think, at least, isn't women football is good addition... I mean more football is always welcome, but imagine that you can just load men's and women's football together, but that takes a hit on processing times of the game. 

[Scotty Walds]

2 hours ago, grade said:

The issue here, I think, at least, isn't women football is good addition... I mean more football is always welcome, but imagine that you can just load men's and women's football together, but that takes a hit on processing times of the game. 

Adding any extra leagues to a save will have a hit on processing time, yet people always ask for FM to include new leagues...

[kevhamster]

4 hours ago, grade said:

The issue here, I think, at least, isn't women football is good addition... I mean more football is always welcome, but imagine that you can just load men's and women's football together, but that takes a hit on processing times of the game. 

More leagues in a save will always cause an increase in processing times.  However, I fully expect loading of any league to be optional, same as it is currently.  So, if you're loading the men's leagues in England for example, I don't think you'll be forced to load the women's leagues, but will have the option to if you wish and they can exist side by side within the game.  At least, that's how I've interpreted the info given so far and the game has always been flexible in allowing players to choose the leagues which interest them while ignoring any which don't, and I can't see that changing.

[Novem9]

Interesting discussions here, but unfortunately all speculation. If only there was a profession that told the public about what was produced, and we could discuss specific details!

[Novem9]

В 01.07.2024 в 12:42, XaW сказал:

If it takes a woman 9 months to create a child, it should take 9 women one month to do the same, right? I can't tell you the number of project managers who seems to have this line of thinking I've dealt with!

At first this example made me smile. But there are projects where 12 is no better than 8. But if we talking about abstacrt conveyor product, with inherited errors from year to year, crude functions and the smell of stagnation? It is possible to assume that the conclusion about additional assistance is not so bad. Especially when management publicly savors "new sales records" every year.

And I completely agree that a niche product for geeks doesn't need to announce new features every year. Especially if there is no energy/time for their full implementation.

[wazzaflow10]

On 11/06/2024 at 11:46, Novem9 said:

Q2 = last week of June looks like   SI really don’t like to rush into announcements and make premature promises.

Anti Paradox Interactive, where we know almost everything about a game at the pre-alpha stage already  

Sega is a Japanese company so SI"s Q2 might be July-Sept.

[grade]

4 hours ago, Scotty Walds said:

Adding any extra leagues to a save will have a hit on processing time, yet people always ask for FM to include new leagues...

I don't think you understood me... maybe I didn't explain it well. I explain it further down bellow.

2 hours ago, kevhamster said:

More leagues in a save will always cause an increase in processing times.  However, I fully expect loading of any league to be optional, same as it is currently.  So, if you're loading the men's leagues in England for example, I don't think you'll be forced to load the women's leagues, but will have the option to if you wish and they can exist side by side within the game.  At least, that's how I've interpreted the info given so far and the game has always been flexible in allowing players to choose the leagues which interest them while ignoring any which don't, and I can't see that changing.

That is the thing... from Miles "blog post", it throwing the idea of switching between men's and women football that easy:

Quote

...you will be able to seamlessly move between managing men’s and women’s teams. One game, one ecosystem.

What people are discussing is that the phrase seems to hint that when you load a nation (you can choose which leagues, but selecting top tier leagues, you will load both men's and women's leagues. if that is true the processing times will take longer (maybe not that longer, but adding multiple nations, things add up). For people that want to just play men's or women's, seemed will be hindered.

I like to believe what you say is true, but that doesn't seem what we are getting from this phrase.

Thus why, i think this announcement isn't one. It just created more confusion and we now know less than previously about FM25.

[Scotty Walds]

1 minute ago, grade said:

What people are discussing is that the phrase seems to hint that when you load a nation (you can choose which leagues, but selecting top tier leagues, you will load both men's and women's leagues. if that is true the processing times will take longer (maybe not that longer, but adding multiple nations, things add up). For people that want to just play men's or women's, seemed will be hindered.

Is it a hint, or are people looking for something to complain about? My point still stands - you can say that currently in FM24, for example, it's 1 ecosystem for both English and Scottish leagues, and you switch between them for jobs. I don't see why you won't be able to "ignore" women's football in the game, if you want to.

[XaW]

2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

At first this example made me smile. But there are projects where 12 is no better than 8. But if we talking about abstacrt conveyor product, with inherited errors from year to year, crude functions and the smell of stagnation? It is possible to assume that the conclusion about additional assistance is not so bad. Especially when management publicly savors "new sales records" every year.

And I completely agree that a niche product for geeks doesn't need to announce new features every year. Especially if there is no energy/time for their full implementation.

Yes, there are project where more people = more work done, but not all work can be done along others. I'm using non-coding terms here, because starting to discuss how it's done in software is quite the moot point since I don't know what framework SI use, nor how they have implemented it, but is goes back to my joking thing about babies. I could also have said; you can't start roofing a house before the foundation is done. Some tasks just need to be done before others are started and some times different people do different tasks.

Personally, I can say I'd be happy with a version of FM with 0 new features, only bug fixes, polish, and QoL stuff. I do think some users would use that as a stick to beat SI with, but then again, other do when they release new features too. Guess a "cleaned up" version is harder to sell to causal users though, so there's that.

Hell, the product I work on in real life do the same and we have a much more limited and "locked in" user base for our product, but we also have to add features over technical debt to please the overlords with the money bag at times...

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, XaW сказал:

Personally, I can say I'd be happy with a version of FM with 0 new features, only bug fixes, polish, and QoL stuff. I do think some users would use that as a stick to beat SI with, but then again, other do when they release new features too. Guess a "cleaned up" version is harder to sell to causal users though, so there's that.

If SI releases FM without new features, some customers will be unhappy. If SI releases a game with new features, but without depth and completeness, some customers will be unhappy too.

The funny thing is that if you look closely, in both cases the same people will be dissatisfied   With a high degree of probability, they have not bought FM at all for several years, but only watch “revealing videos”. My point is that it is better to focus on the product than trying to guess market sentiment. Moreover, this is a truly niche and specific product, even in the Tycoon segment.

I have always been interested in the role of SEGA in all this, and the degree of their influence on SI decisions.

 

2 часа назад, XaW сказал:

Hell, the product I work on in real life do the same and we have a much more limited and "locked in" user base for our product, but we also have to add features over technical debt to please the overlords with the money bag at times...

I was working on an electronic catalogue, corporate internal development. The customer and the contractor were the same legal entity, just different departments. But even there, the main work was not analytics, not testing, but simply connecting programmers and business, since these two worlds did not want to come into contact in search of compromises at all

[baris28]

1 saat önce, Novem9 said:

'If SI releases FM without new features, some customers will be unhappy. If SI releases a game with new features, but without depth and completeness, some customers will be unhappy too.

The funny thing is that if you look closely, in both cases the same people will be dissatisfied   With a high degree of probability, they have not bought FM at all for several years, but only watch “revealing videos”. My point is that it is better to focus on the product than trying to guess market sentiment. Moreover, this is a truly niche and specific product, even in the Tycoon segment. '

 

 

Not sure about the same people will be dissatisfied if with no new features. Or they've not bought at all for several years only warching "revealing videos”.But you are correct about SEGA decision. But SI do not have niche market to be honest.

 

 

 

Edited July 3 by baris28

[baris28]

Not sure about the same people will be dissatisfied if with no new features. Or they've not bought at all for several years only warching "revealing videos”.But you are correct about SEGA decision. But SI do not have niche market to be honest. They can also make decision.

Edited July 3 by baris28

[phnompenhandy]

8 hours ago, grade said:

I don't think you understood me... maybe I didn't explain it well. I explain it further down bellow.

That is the thing... from Miles "blog post", it throwing the idea of switching between men's and women football that easy:

What people are discussing is that the phrase seems to hint that when you load a nation (you can choose which leagues, but selecting top tier leagues, you will load both men's and women's leagues. if that is true the processing times will take longer (maybe not that longer, but adding multiple nations, things add up). For people that want to just play men's or women's, seemed will be hindered.

I like to believe what you say is true, but that doesn't seem what we are getting from this phrase.

Thus why, i think this announcement isn't one. It just created more confusion and we now know less than previously about FM25.

If your assumption is correct, it would be a problem (for me anyway, with a decade-old rig). But that's not what I'm expecting. As a lower league manager, I'm expecting to face a choice of loading up England L6 alongside England women's leagues rather than England L6 alongside Wales (men's) lower leagues. As someone above says, it is speculation at this stage, so I'll await further clarification from SI.

[kiwityke1983]

It's not unusual for me to have 10-15 countries running at once with 30-40 leagues.

I like having a big world running as it gives the most realistic one to play in even if over a 20-25 year save I only manage in 4 or 5 of them.

Often I'll load all Europe, all of Asia etc.

If every country has women's leagues attached by default with no way to turn them off then it really limits the number of leagues and countries you can feasibly run.

You either halve the number of leagues you run (that you are interested in IE the men's/women's leagues) or doubling your load times (with half the leagues being of no interest or effect on the men's game or women's if you don't want mens football to be simulated).

It would be an utterly bizarre decision for SI to make to be honest.

And if they do I wouldn't wish to be a mod when FM25 comes out because these forums will go into absolute meltdown.

Edited July 4 by kiwityke1983

[kevhamster]

15 hours ago, grade said:

 

That is the thing... from Miles "blog post", it throwing the idea of switching between men's and women football that easy:

 

Yes, my taking of it is the leagues are separate - a bit like you can choose to only load the Premier League if you really want to, but you'll have the option of loading one or the other, or both.  And if you load both, they will exist side by side in the game world and in theory you could move from managing the Arsenal men's team to the Man City women's team if you want to.  Which is exactly how it should be.  Phil Neville went from manager of the England women's team to managing Inter Miami men's team in real life.

[kevhamster]

39 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

It's not unusual for me to have 10-15 countries running at once with 30-40 leagues.

I like having a big world running as it gives the most realistic one to play in even if over a 20-25 year save I only manage in 4 or 5 of them.

Often I'll load all Europe, all of Asia etc.

If every country has women's leagues attached by default with no way to turn them off then it really limits the number of leagues and countries you can feasibly run.

You either halve the number of leagues you run (that you are interested in IE the men's/women's leagues) or doubling your load times (with half the leagues being of no interest or effect on the men's game or women's if you don't want mens football to be simulated).

It would an utterly bizarre decision for SI to make to be honest.

And if they do I wouldn't wish to be a mod when FM25 comes out because these forums will go into absolute meltdown.

Where is everybody getting the notion that loading the women's leagues will be compulsory?  I've not got that impression at all.  FM has always been flexible in what leagues can be loaded and there's no reason to think this would be any different.

[kiwityke1983]

4 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

Where is everybody getting the notion that loading the women's leagues will be compulsory?  I've not got that impression at all.  FM has always been flexible in what leagues can be loaded and there's no reason to think this would be any different.

No I'm just speculating on the speculation it's mental to think SI would do it.