Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[Coulthard's Jaw]

it is very good 

[VamPook]

 

[themadsheep2001]

7 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Kane apparently approached Southgate for an explanation as to why he'd omitted Grealish. I remember Kane saying at the last Euros how much he enjoyed playing with him.

Hope he was told that he hasn't really been good enough output wise. Rashford had a better G/A this season despite being trash, and he didnt even make the wider squad. 

[Baptista_8]

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Hope he was told that he hasn't really been good enough output wise. Rashford had a better G/A this season despite being trash, and he didnt even make the wider squad. 

If only everything was as simple as G/A.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Baptista_8 said:

If only everything was as simple as G/A.

He's also been quite ineffective outside of G/A. Its as simple as him not being good enough. 

[Rob1981]

4 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

If only everything was as simple as G/A.

Weren’t you the guy that lobbied for him to start at Euro 2020 based on his xG?

There are other players in that position who have been a lot better in the second half of the season. It’s as simple as that. 

I’m not buying the idea the the manager has a “grudge” against someone he has taken to two previous tournaments and capped 30-odd times.

But for years people have been screaming at him to pick on form. Now he’s picking on form.

Even if you wanted to overlook club performances and throw in a wildcard based on a “good understanding with Kane”, you still wouldn’t pick Grealish. You would keep faith with Rashford or you would recall Sterling. Grealish hasn’t been that great for England anyway even when he’s been given the chances.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

Weren’t you the guy that lobbied for him to start at Euro 2020 based on his xG?

There are other players in that position who have been a lot better in the second half of the season. It’s as simple as that. 

I’m not buying the idea the the manager has a “grudge” against someone he has taken to two previous tournaments and capped 30-odd times.

But for years people have been screaming at him to pick on form. Now he’s picking on form.

Even if you wanted to overlook club performances and throw in a wildcard based on a “good understanding with Kane”, you still wouldn’t pick Grealish. You would keep faith with Rashford or you would recall Sterling. Grealish hasn’t been that great for England anyway even when he’s been given the chances.

If anyone was getting that wildcard it would 100% be Sterling. 

[Pukey]

1 hour ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

 

One of my favourite accounts atm, every video he does is so so good.

[Redshift]

Can anyone update me on the Coming Home status please? 

[Baptista_8]

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

Weren’t you the guy that lobbied for him to start at Euro 2020 based on his xG?

There are other players in that position who have been a lot better in the second half of the season. It’s as simple as that. 

I’m not buying the idea the the manager has a “grudge” against someone he has taken to two previous tournaments and capped 30-odd times.

But for years people have been screaming at him to pick on form. Now he’s picking on form.

Even if you wanted to overlook club performances and throw in a wildcard based on a “good understanding with Kane”, you still wouldn’t pick Grealish. You would keep faith with Rashford or you would recall Sterling. Grealish hasn’t been that great for England anyway even when he’s been given the chances.

Grealish's xG? No. He's never ever been that kind of player, so no idea what you mean there.

Grealish can bring control in the final third against the top nations. He's not had a great season but IMO he just has to be in that squad. Best close control in the squad for me, you need that in tight games to keep the ball. And despite the season he's had, with his mentality, he'd be more than capable of turning it on at the Euros.

Edited June 7 by Baptista_8

[Bliss Seeker]

14 minutes ago, Redshift said:

Can anyone update me on the Coming Home status please? 

Just the 58 years. 

Part of me wants us to wait until 2026 so we can nicely round it off at 60. 

[Redshift]

1 minute ago, Bliss Seeker said:

Just the 58 years. 

Part of me wants us to wait until 2026 so we can nicely round it off at 60. 

Man, I remember 30 years of hurt 

[Bliss Seeker]

3 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Grealish's xG? No. He's never ever been that kind of player, so no idea what you mean there.

Grealish can bring control in the final third against the top nations. He's not had a great season but IMO he just has to be in that squad. Best close control in the squad for me, you need that in tight games to keep the ball.

Yea that's my thoughts too. I'd have liked to see Grealish in the squad for that option, when we're having issues against a low block defensive outfit.

I understand he hasn't had the best season though, so maybe giving his spot to a more mobile and energetic Gordon is understandable. 

Still surprised, think back to 2021 when everyone was screaming for him to come on everytime his cheeky mug was on the telly. The clamour. A £100m transfer, two prems, a champions league later and he's lost out to a player most here on the FF thought was garbage and wouldn't amount to anything. 

 

[Baptista_8]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

He's also been quite ineffective outside of G/A. Its as simple as him not being good enough. 

I mean he's more than good enough to be in that squad at least  He offers something different.

Pep doesn't pay 100m for average players.

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

I mean he's more than good enough to be in that squad at least  He offers something different.

Pep doesn't pay 100m for average players.

Over who in the attacking mid/wide mid area?

Grealish has been pretty average this season though

[Barry Cartman]

9 minutes ago, Redshift said:

Man, I remember 30 years of hurt 

Back in 2000, non of this 30 years of hurt in 96 business 

[Baptista_8]

7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Over who in the attacking mid/wide mid area?

Grealish has been pretty average this season though

Yeah he has been, can't debate that. I'd have taken him over both Gordon and Bowen at the least, probably Gordon given Bowen is our only direct option in those areas (well Gordon is direct as well I guess but Bowen moreso IMO).

However, with Foden, Saka, Palmer Bellingham, and Eze, are Gordon and Bowen going to be getting many minutes anyway?

Edited June 7 by Baptista_8

[Baptista_8]

Tbf I really like Eze, I think he's similar to Grealish in some ways, but more physical, more powerful in his running, and more tricky. I hope he gets plenty of minutes. Just wish we had a left footer to overlap him from left back.

[Pukey]

I hope Eze gets plenty of minutes as well, such a good player. As I said during the game the other night, he'd be absolutely horrific for defenders to deal with coming off the bench if we need a bit of a spark from somewhere. 

[skybluedave]

Tbf I'd have taken Grealish but it is quite funny after all that Grealish circus at last Euros, people (Villa fans) now saying he should be called up not on form but reputation. How the table has turned 

[themadsheep2001]

12 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Yeah he has been, can't debate that. I'd have taken him over both Gordon and Bowen at the least, probably Gordon given Bowen is our only direct option in those areas (well Gordon is direct as well I guess but Bowen moreso IMO).

However, with Foden, Saka, Palmer Bellingham, and Eze, are Gordon and Bowen going to be getting many minutes anyway?

Gordon and Bowen are in because he's not been doing his really direct thing. And they are more likely to score goals than he is in limited minutes. Thats his problem. 

You can take him for his ball holding, but hes really not been good enough using it this season. The only way I think you fit him in is taking only 2 strikers 

[Rob1981]

29 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Grealish's xG? No. He's never ever been that kind of player, so no idea what you mean there.

Sorry, yes my mistake. 

You went into bat for him based on his Expected Assists (xA), an even more pointless metric.

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

Sorry, yes my mistake. 

You went into bat for him based on his Expected Assists (xA), an even more pointless metric.

I went into bat for him because he was putting in world class performances that season.

[Baptista_8]

4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Gordon and Bowen are in because he's not been doing his really direct thing. And they are more likely to score goals than he is in limited minutes. Thats his problem. 

You can take him for his ball holding, but hes really not been good enough using it this season. The only way I think you fit him in is taking only 2 strikers 

My concern is how effective are that pair going to be against top nations? I don't think either of them are top class. Grealish when he's on it comfortably is, IMO.

Anyway, Palmer and Eze could light this tournament up if used enough 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

My concern is how effective are that pair going to be against top nations? I don't think either of them are top class. Grealish when he's on it comfortably is, IMO.

Anyway, Palmer and Eze could light this tournament up if used enough 

I think they will be more effective than an out of form Grealish. And you still got Palmer and Eze ahead of them as well. And those two are genuinely scary ball at feet, particularly Eze, we need to really use him. 

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

I went into bat for him because he was putting in world class performances that season.

OK

But you were leaning into these random stats at the time, and now you're saying his G/A numbers don't matter because he's got a good understanding with Kane.  You can't have it both ways. 

And his G/A numbers should be higher than most if he's playing for a side that swot most of their opponents aside.

[Rob1981]

fwiw I would have probably taken Grealish over Toney because I don't think Toney will kick a ball unless we bring him on for a penalty shootout

But if Grealish was in there, he is probably behind Palmer, Bowen, Gordon, Watkins and Eze in the "impact sub" stakes.  So is he actually going to play?  May as well free up a spot to give yourself more options elsewhere.

Edited June 7 by Rob1981

[Smallen]

Gordon has scored against Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U (twice), Chelsea, Man City and Spurs this season. The last thing to be worried about with him is his record against the best/big teams.

Edited June 7 by Smallen

[adhikapp]

Maddison is a game-changer as well. When he's on it, he'd change games, and has more end product than Grealish. But there's just 26 spots, someones gotta leave and you can't bring em all. All of Bowen, Eze, Maddison, Grealish, Gordon has strong cases to both be included AND dropped, so there really shouldn't be too much noise about this.

My concern is Lewis Dunk over Branthwaite and possibly Dier & Tomori. How's he got there?! Why isn't there more discussion about this? Or the fact that Tyrick Mitchell (who's a better LB than Dunk is a CB), isn't even called up?

[Crispypaul]

Am I the only one who has never been that impressed by Grealish as a "game changer" for England? 

[Bootador]

13 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Tbf I'd have taken Grealish but it is quite funny after all that Grealish circus at last Euros, people (Villa fans) now saying he should be called up not on form but reputation. How the table has turned 

I wouldn't say it's on reputation, it's based on what he can offer in certain game states that other players cannot. My personal opinion is we've taken players who've had better seasons but will struggle to get on the pitch because there's not a game state that will warrant their use? They're just wasted squad slots.

Grealish might have only played 2 30 minutes all tournament but he'd have been useful in those moments.

[Baptista_8]

3 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Gordon has scored against Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U (twice), Chelsea, Man City and Spurs this season. The last thing to be worried about with him is his record against the best/big teams.

Fair, my point is we need ball retention in the final third against these top sides. Eze and particularly Palmer can bring that though.

[Baptista_8]

18 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Tbf I'd have taken Grealish but it is quite funny after all that Grealish circus at last Euros, people (Villa fans) now saying he should be called up not on form but reputation. How the table has turned 

Ability, not reputation.

[Baptista_8]

Who's our first choice CB pairing these days? Stones and?

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

Who's our first choice CB pairing these days? Stones and?

With Maguire gone, probably Guehi and Stones.

[Smallen]

Gordon can do ball retention, it’s just not something that fits in with Howe’s style so we don’t see it. I think the thing that perhaps goes unnoticed with AG and doesn’t count towards G/A stats (he has 11/10 of those this season anyway btw) but is just as important is his pretty unique ability to win penalties. He’s won 6 in the PL this season which is twice as many as anyone else.

I think it’s fair enough if people still have a misconception of Gordon’s ability though tbh. I thought he was rubbish and I’ve never been more wrong about a player. He has a freak mentality to improve and the progression this season has been ridiculous.

[Baptista_8]

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Gordon can do ball retention, it’s just not something that fits in with Howe’s style so we don’t see it. I think the thing that perhaps goes unnoticed with AG and doesn’t count towards G/A stats (he has 11/10 of those this season anyway btw) but is just as important is his pretty unique ability to win penalties. He’s won 6 in the PL this season which is twice as many as anyone else.

I think it’s fair enough if people still have a misconception of Gordon’s ability though tbh. I thought he was rubbish and I’ve never been more wrong about a player. He has a freak mentality to improve and the progression this season has been ridiculous.

I was the one defending his potential when he moved, but then watching him for England last time I thought he lacked something - thought he showed plenty of work rate but a lack of quality. Need to see more of him though.

[Bliss Seeker]

With England playing Iceland tonight, just a reminder of just how far we've come from these dark pre-Southgate days: 

 

 

 

[Barry Cartman]

Played a middle 3 of Rooney, Dele & Dier and here we are now saying Rice, Bellingham & Foden would never work  

[Pukey]

24 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Gordon can do ball retention, it’s just not something that fits in with Howe’s style so we don’t see it. I think the thing that perhaps goes unnoticed with AG and doesn’t count towards G/A stats (he has 11/10 of those this season anyway btw) but is just as important is his pretty unique ability to win penalties. He’s won 6 in the PL this season which is twice as many as anyone else.

I think it’s fair enough if people still have a misconception of Gordon’s ability though tbh. I thought he was rubbish and I’ve never been more wrong about a player. He has a freak mentality to improve and the progression this season has been ridiculous.

It's ok, you can say he's a diver

[VP.]

52 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

Am I the only one who has never been that impressed by Grealish as a "game changer" for England? 

I can't off the top of my head remember him and Kane playing great together, he may have assisted a goal or two (or none) but there's nothing that stands out to me.

Certainly no Beardsley/Lineker pairing anyway.

[VP.]

39 minutes ago, Bliss Seeker said:

With England playing Iceland tonight, just a reminder of just how far we've come from these dark pre-Southgate days: 

 

When you look back on that team a 2-1 defeat seems a respectable result.

Edited June 7 by VP.

[Bootador]

Outside of Grealish, I think it's a mistake to leave Branthewaite home and could be costly. Left footed centre back so useful, especially when me might not have any left footed defenders on the pitch (depending on Shaw)

Hope Wharton starts tonight, the more I watch of him the more brilliant he looks. Actually think he's a much better foil for Rice than Mainoo - there's still time.

[Rob1981]

Why would you post the Iceland defeat in 2016?  Just why?

I prefer to think back to this annihilation of Iceland in 2004:

Final warmup game in Manchester ahead of flying out to the Euros in Portugal.  Rooney ready to set the world alight.  Darius Vassell scoring two and cementing his reputation as a supersub.  Ian Walker randomly getting to play the second half because he had been recalled as the third choice keeper, even though he hadn't played for England for seven years.

Good times.

[Rob1981]

It is weird how the vibe around these warmup games has changed.

At one time you wanted to go into your last friendly, start the team you thought you would play for the tournament, then try and give everyone the confidence that you were going to do alright.  Now you just want everyone to get through the game unscathed, or use the time to try out some different options again and play people that still haven't had many minutes.  I would be quite happy if we left out all the big players again tonight and kept them wrapped up in cotton wool

[Lucas]

@Rob1981 Come on, mate. 

[Rob1981]

Haha, I wish that was me   But it isn't.

[Rob1981]

Also not sure "head says we won't win" counts as sticking your neck out

[jonnybegood]

Would’ve taken grealish over Bowen personally. Statistically Bowen had the better season but now we have Foden, palmer, Saka and Bowen all left footed that can come inside from the right and left with Eze and Gordon right footed to come inside from the left. I guess he’s planning for Foden to play left sided but still doesn’t make sense to me.

meme

[Bliss Seeker]

18 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Why would you post the Iceland defeat in 2016?  Just why?

I prefer to think back to this annihilation of Iceland in 2004:

Final warmup game in Manchester ahead of flying out to the Euros in Portugal.  Rooney ready to set the world alight.  Darius Vassell scoring two and cementing his reputation as a supersub.  Ian Walker randomly getting to play the second half because he had been recalled as the third choice keeper, even though he hadn't played for England for seven years.

Good times.

Far too much optimism and giddyness in this thread for my liking. 

I want the pessimism and the Southgate memes back