Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[Robson 07]

• England are not getting the ball out of defence very well, and aside from Pickford lumping it in a rage, it's because it only going through Rice.  Mainoo is an option that helps with that aspect.  He should play.
• England have been carrying players.  Both TAA and Gallagher totally ineffective in a key position.  See point above.  But they are also carrying Kane.  We might need his composure late in games but bench him until an hour has been played.  Get energy and pace up top to stretch the game a bit.
• Keep Bellingham where he is and see if he benefits from Mainoo and a different striker.
• Look at the fitness of Saka vs Palmer.  At this point, play Palmer simply if he's fresher.
• Keep Trent out of the team.
• Left wing.  This is England's biggest problem in that the solutions are handicapped by lack of a left back.  Keep Foden if Shaw can play.  If Shaw can't then hope for the best.  Maybe Gordon but if it's that option then Foden should be dropped.  I wouldn't reorganise the rest of the team to simply accomodate Foden elsewhere.  It's too much tinkering.  But then he becomes a good option obviously to replace Bellingham if he continues to underperform.

Edited Wednesday at 12:19 by Robson 07

[Robson 07]

13 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

I mean it can't really be exposed much more as to how clueless Southgate is.

Wait until the FA renews his contract again.  Man Utd have literally just had 60-game Southgate type season from Ten Hag and came to the decision, to offer him a new deal.

[Vynal Seven]

7 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Man Utd have literally just had 60-game Southgate type season from Ten Hag and came to the decision, to offer him a new deal.

Yeah, because the alternative was actual Southgate.  

Edited Wednesday at 12:30 by Vynal Seven

[Bigwig]

37 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Left wing.  This is England's biggest problem in that the solutions are handicapped by lack of a left back.  Keep Foden if Shaw can play.  If Shaw can't then hope for the best.  Maybe Gordon but if it's that option then Foden should be dropped.  I wouldn't reorganise the rest of the team to simply accomodate Foden elsewhere.  It's too much tinkering.  But then he becomes a good option obviously to replace Bellingham if he continues to underperform.

I remember when left wing was our biggest problem area because we didn’t have any options there. Now we have loads but don’t want to use any of them. 

[matt1389]

Haven't read all of the last few pages, but imagine there's a lot of the same Gallagher love that was in the match thread. Think people are being a bit harsh. He's being shoehorned into a role he's not suited to. 

Problem with him is that Southgate is playing him in midfield and thinking that because he runs a lot, he's somehow got an ounce of defensive acumen to be played deeper. I've always described him to friends as a defensive 10. He'll press etc brilliantly, but you then want him to immediately give the ball to Palmer (for Chelsea) or Foden etc for England. 

He's played best for Chelsea in that defensive 10 role, or as a two alongside Caicedo when Cucu inverts from LB. He's not a good fit as part of a double pivot in this England team. 

[Robson 07]

31 minutes ago, matt1389 said:

Haven't read all of the last few pages, but imagine there's a lot of the same Gallagher love that was in the match thread. Think people are being a bit harsh. He's being shoehorned into a role he's not suited to. 

Problem with him is that Southgate is playing him in midfield and thinking that because he runs a lot, he's somehow got an ounce of defensive acumen to be played deeper. I've always described him to friends as a defensive 10. He'll press etc brilliantly, but you then want him to immediately give the ball to Palmer (for Chelsea) or Foden etc for England. 

He's played best for Chelsea in that defensive 10 role, or as a two alongside Caicedo when Cucu inverts from LB. He's not a good fit as part of a double pivot in this England team. 

Faintly strikes me as a non-goalscoring version of McTominay. 

[kopsy101]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

• England are not getting the ball out of defence very well, and aside from Pickford lumping it in a rage, it's because it only going through Rice.  Mainoo is an option that helps with that aspect.  He should play.
• England have been carrying players.  Both TAA and Gallagher totally ineffective in a key position.  See point above.  But they are also carrying Kane.  We might need his composure late in games but bench him until an hour has been played.  Get energy and pace up top to stretch the game a bit.
• Keep Bellingham where he is and see if he benefits from Mainoo and a different striker.
• Look at the fitness of Saka vs Palmer.  At this point, play Palmer simply if he's fresher.
• Keep Trent out of the team.
• Left wing.  This is England's biggest problem in that the solutions are handicapped by lack of a left back.  Keep Foden if Shaw can play.  If Shaw can't then hope for the best.  Maybe Gordon but if it's that option then Foden should be dropped.  I wouldn't reorganise the rest of the team to simply accomodate Foden elsewhere.  It's too much tinkering.  But then he becomes a good option obviously to replace Bellingham if he continues to underperform.

Immediately, stats disprove point 1. Which then disproves point 2.

I agree that Mainoo should start, he always should have started. And the team shouldn't lose all it's balance to get Foden in. 

[Baptista_8]

[Rob1981]

Does this still not count as the media criticising the players?

[Darren Moores Mum]

Foden left the camp temporarily for a "pressing family matter"

https://news.sky.com/story/phil-foden-leaves-englands-euro-2024-camp-in-germany-13159437

Edited Wednesday at 14:46 by Darren Moores Mum

[Bliss Seeker]

"Pressing" huh, funny that, given "pressing" is one thing.... ah forget it! 

[Rob1981]

Jeez.

The last half hour of the Southgate biopic is going to be mental.

[Bliss Seeker]

His girlfriend is pregnant with their third (!) child.  Hope all is ok! 

[kopsy101]

Oh jeez, fingers crossed everything is alright. 

[JJ72]

Can he call up Rashford as a replacement? Straight in on the left...

[iamjerome]

9 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

There's no way he's deserved eight years in charge of us. It's insane.

He got to one final with home advantage and didn't win it when it was there for the taking. Semi he got us to he had an easy run. Two games against Belgium we lost, Croatia we lost. We beat Colombia (on pens) and Sweden to get there.

2018 was a miracle our team wasn't even good and people forget our expectations were non existent. we were coming off embarrassing ourselves in 2014 and 2016 ffs but people want to bring up oh we didn't beat a good team - so what? our last tournament we went out to iceland the last wc we ended bottom of the group without a single win it was a run to be enjoyed and it was great to be able to see players enjoy themselves for england again. so obviously he deserved at least another tournament after that.

2020 we got to a final with home advantage which is better than we did in 1996. we got to a final which is better than we've done since 1966 even and we lost on pens. it would have been absolutely ludicrous to sack him after that.

2022 we were actually playing pretty well. we held our own against the world champions and were unlucky to go out. i think maybe he could have stepped away after this but the FA begged him to stay and i don't think it's insane he got another tournament because it seemed like it was just a tournament too early for some of our players and we would be really coming into our strength in 2024 so can he win it with more players in their actual prime.

2024 however i have no caveats or justifications. we should be on fire and with how the draw has played out - we should be making the final. anything short is a terrible underperformance now.  southgate needs to make some hard decisions and drop one of foden or bellingham - maybe even both to get gordon in on the left for sure and maybe palmer as well. keep mainoo in the middle too. actually have a balanced team instead of this insane system where we completely sabotage ourselves ignoring the entire left flank.

[iamjerome]

3 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Yeah, he should have had the balls to make changes to see that game out and stay on the front foot. I'm a broken record as everyone knows but borderline world class Grealish (in 2021) was criminally underused in that tournament.

except him using sterling instead of grealish was a perfect example of southgate actually making the right call. it was good that southgate had the balls to not fall for public pressure to bring a sexy popular 'world class' player on who actually rworked as well with kane as much as sterling did who was our best player in taking us to the final.

he needs to show similar mettle and prioritise balance and working combinations (like kane + sterling was) over trying to get every 'world class' player in.

just like italy didn't try to have both del piero and totti in at the same time as someone said earlier.

just like spain had fabregas on the bench.

or france had dembele on the bench and instead played matuidi in an 'attacking' role to allow griezmann and pogba's freer roles in 2018.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 15:58 by iamjerome

[Yuko]

19 minutes ago, iamjerome said:

2018 was a miracle our team wasn't even good and people forget our expectations were non existent. we were coming off embarrassing ourselves in 2014 and 2016 ffs but people want to bring up oh we didn't beat a good team - so what? our last tournament we went out to iceland the last wc we ended bottom of the group without a single win it was a run to be enjoyed and it was great to be able to see players enjoy themselves for england again. so obviously he deserved at least another tournament after that.

tbf 2018 was not really a miracle or anything. It was just a good draw. 

 

You only had to face Colombia that was half-decent but it wasn't 2014 Colombia by any means (and that one didn't even have Falcao) and you needed penalties to get over them. So it was mostly luck, but that's how deep runs can go sometimes in these things. 

It may very well happen now as it seems like the r16 opponent will be weak, Italy doesn't look convincing either so maybe Switzerland in the QF is an option, and suddenly you're a Semi-Finalist with Belgium, Turkey or Austria being a possible opponent there. Finalists again, and Southgate looks like a hero. 

 

19 minutes ago, iamjerome said:

2020 we got to a final with home advantage which is better than we did in 1996. we got to a final which is better than we've done since 1966 even and we lost on pens. it would have been absolutely ludicrous to sack him after that.

 

It's rather typical of England to get knocked out by the first formidable opposition they find, and in the 2020(+1) Euro, you beat Germany, even if it were at home, and everyone thought this was finally the year. But England didn't look sharp against Denmark - and got a bit of a push to reach the final iirc - and after scoring early versus Italy, basically didn't do much to capitalize on that and let Italy do their thing. 

 

19 minutes ago, iamjerome said:

2022 we were actually playing pretty well. we held our own against the world champions and were unlucky to go out. i think maybe he could have stepped away after this but the FA begged him to stay and i don't think it's insane he got another tournament because it seemed like it was just a tournament too early for some of our players and we would be really coming into our strength in 2024 so can he win it with more players in their actual prime.

I wouldn't say England played well in that World Cup. There was also pressure to succeed since the team showed in the Euro and previous World Cup that it was capable of defeating its demons (ie a PK shootout and a national team that traditionally has their number)

There were a few moments vs France that it looked as if England could do damage, but honestly it felt like the whole team reverted to default settings and collapsed when it mattered. And France wasn't even playing well and I wouldn't attribute that to England's playing style.

 

19 minutes ago, iamjerome said:

2024 however i have no caveats or justifications. we should be on fire and with how the draw has played out - we should be making the final. anything short is a terrible underperformance now.  southgate needs to make some hard decisions and drop one of foden or bellingham - maybe even both to get gordon in on the left for sure and maybe palmer as well. keep mainoo in the middle too. actually have a balanced team instead of this insane system where we completely sabotage ourselves ignoring the entire left flank.

I think you're being strict as no team has looked great. Apart from Spain and maybe Portugal who manage to play their game and get the results, everyone else looks shockingly underwhelming. 

Germany should be doing a lot better than saving 1st spot with a 90+ minute goal.

France is looking very shaky.

The Dutch, the Italians, the Belgians and the Croatians have been poor.. 

 

It's too soon to say, we don't even know who's gonna play who in the Round of 16 yet due to this system and since every point matter, teams are more satisfied to play for 1 rather than potentially lose it for a chance to get 3. 

KO is a different animal here, but we won't see that many open games after tonight. 

 

If anything, England are probably the favorites to reach the Final as things stand. Spain has to face Germany/France/Portugal. Germany has to face Spain/France/Portugal and so on. They cancel each other's odds out.

I'm not sure if the Netherlands will fall as England's R16 rival. That wouldn't make things easy of course. But if it's Slovakia/Ukraine/Romania, I think you wouldn't be calling that a tough KO game before the tournament. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[hilly_boro]

@Rob1981

This 3rd place thing is baffling me. Why is it Netherlands at the minute and why might it change? 

Why are we getting the highest ranked 3rd place team? 

I've tried to work this out for 24 hours and now I need assistance 

[Rob1981]

7 minutes ago, hilly_boro said:

@Rob1981

This 3rd place thing is baffling me. Why is it Netherlands at the minute and why might it change? 

Why are we getting the highest ranked 3rd place team? 

I've tried to work this out for 24 hours and now I need assistance 

They match the 1st place teams and 3rd place teams in different ways, depending on which specific combination of groups provide the four best 3rd place teams.

At the start there are 15 different possibilities:

But now there are only two options left:

The third place teams are now either going to come from ACDE or CDEF.

But then this impacts how they get matched up.

If it's ACDE, then England (1C) get 3D (Netherlands]

If it's CDEF, then England [1C] get 3E [Slovakia]

It's a little confusing because Netherlands and Slovakia are both getting through whatever happens.  But they still get matched up in different ways. 

And you say Netherlands are the "highest ranked third place team".  But once they know which four third place teams are going through, they don't actually align the 1st place teams and 3rd place teams based on the order in which the 3rd place teams have ranked.  They only use the head to head rankings to work out which 4/6 are going through,  But then the way they align them with the 1st place teams is already predetermined.

[hilly_boro]

I should have known just to ask you first @Rob1981

Thanks! 

[Rob1981]

No worries, as long you can follow it.

Some of my permutations posts don't even make sense to me when I read them back.

[hilly_boro]

Yeah I do now, had it in my head the third placed teams were ranked and thought it was slightly unfair we were getting the top ranked team after topping our group 

I think I've made a lot of the permutations up in my head as I've been reading. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Slovakia?

[thefmveteran86]

My team for Sunday rate please

[ceefax the cat]

Shaw likely not available, unless I've missed something

No Rice is a bit mad

Dropping Kane highly controversial but on current form, why not bring him on later

5/10

Edited Thursday at 01:45 by ceefax the cat

[JJ72]

Slovakia then. Southgate must have the luck of the devil. If we can't make the final, even playing like *****, he needs retiring to the Conservative MP retirement wood yard

[Lucas]

It’s bold. If there was any game to rotate on a road to the final against “inferior opposition”, it’s this game. I don’t see it though, and see 2 changes, max.

My changes with my Gareth hat on:

Rest: Foden, Saka

In: Gordon, Palmer

Bellingham stays in the 10, swapping with Kane as Kane gets deep. Gallagher in the CM with Rice, probably gets subbed again.

Would like to see Wharton get on for some minutes, and consider TAA for Walker to rest Walker for the trickier QF. 
 

My guess is Foden makes it back in time to be on the bench. His absence means we’ll play better than we have done all tournament  

Famous last words.

 

[ajw10]

7 hours ago, thefmveteran86 said:

My team for Sunday rate please

that midfield is getting ruined defensively

[TalkSport]

If Foden can’t make it due to missing training sessions, I’d still want the team to change.

I’d just get Palmer and Gordon in for Gallagher and Foden. Bellingham still deep with Palmer in the 10 role. Works, then it’s Foden swapping in and out with Palmer / Saka depending on form. 

Would also like to see TAA in for Walker. We’re not going to face the pace up to the final on Walker side, so would rather have TAA in there for more quality on the ball in final third. 

[Bootador]

Agree, even if Foden isn't available I think I still want Bellingham pushed deeper now. Might as well do it next game.

[Barry Cartman]

Whilst I wouldn't in any way drop Rice, he's been dire and shouldn't escape criticism along with the rest of them 

[The_jagster]

All the team has looked ropey, think Guehi is only being praised because he's new, he has made two howlers in the last two matches and been lucky they weren't punished

[Bootador]

I think it's really hard to judge Rice as I'm so conditioned to see Rodri, but he isn't good enough showing for or progressing the ball. We had the same problem 4 years ago iirc too.

Not sure it's a form thing, he's just not very good in that aspect.

Edited Thursday at 08:36 by Bootador

[TalkSport]

Just a case of being asked to play a role that doesn’t maximise his strengths and exposes his weaknesses. So compared to Arsenal form, will look off it.

Feels if you allowed Stones to step into midfield more, it would free up Rice more to travel with the ball, breaking the lines, which he’s exceptional at. Having Walker play his conservative Man City style RB role is only reason he should be in the team to help cover Stones, otherwise, what’s the point. 

[Smallen]

If we're having Walker play as a third CB in possession and build up, he really might as well do it from left back so that we can play one of our right backs on their correct side to actually contribute to attacking play . This is really basic stuff which I can't believe hasn't been tried at all apart from 5 minutes or whatever in the last game.

[ceefax the cat]

On 26/06/2024 at 13:07, Baptista_8 said:

I mean it can't really be exposed much more as to how clueless Southgate is.

Here's a list of other clueless managers, then

Fabio Capello
Sven Goran Eriksson
Bobby Robson

Terry Venables
Kevin Keegan
Roy Hodgson
Steve McClaren

umm... Giovanni Trapattoni

 

 

[Rob1981]

Yeah, if the measure of "clueless" is taking a good international side to a tournament and not quite winning it...

You can include Hitzfeld, Rijkaard, Maldini, Hiddink, Advocaat, van Gaal and Sacchi.

Should be alright in 2026 though.  Since it's definitely only Gareth holding us back.  We just need to bring a better manager in.

[VP.]

He fell off his bike 

[ceefax the cat]

If he comes into the team and does really well, are the fans going to start wearing red spots on their chins?

[enigmatic]

14 hours ago, thefmveteran86 said:

My team for Sunday rate please

I know Rice has been pretty bad the last two games, but not pick Gallagher levels of bad...

[VP.]

May have already been posted but apparently Shaw will be available for Slovakia, though let's be honest there's little chance he's going to get anywhere near match ready now.

Only hope is that we get a couple of goals in front  and he can have at least half an hour (during which he probably gets injured again).

Edited Thursday at 13:12 by VP.

[TalkSport]

Think there’s a difference to being ready for Slovakia, I.e. make the bench, and being fit. Probably going to need build up his minutes across L16 and QF, which if we’re winning, you surely don’t change it up to bring him in for SF where he still wouldn’t be 100% fit. 

[VP.]

Just now, TalkSport said:

Think there’s a difference to being ready for Slovakia, I.e. make the bench, and being fit. Probably going to need build up his minutes across L16 and QF, which if we’re winning, you surely don’t change it up to bring him in for SF where he still wouldn’t be 100% fit. 

Yeah I meant him coming on for half an hour if we're winning, I genuinely don't see him starting a match even if we reach the final but would definitely be a good sub to bring on if/when needed.

[ceefax the cat]

Bringing him on at half time when our left flank has congealed into nonsense sounds like just the ticket.

And if he's not up to it, pleeeease just accept that we need Gordon. Width, directness, crosses fizzed across the six yard box from the byline... everything we don't currently have. He's not a better player than Palmer, Foden or Saka but he's exactly the laxative our attack needs. They'll play better if he's in the side.

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

pleeeease just accept that we need Gordon. He's not a better player than Palmer, Foden or Saka but he's exactly the laxative our attack needs. They'll play better if he's in the side.

Almost like you need to pick your best team, not your best eleven individuals.

Who knew.

[ceefax the cat]

Indeed. I love that England have this surfeit of gifted number 10's and inside forwards, but without depth and width they've got nothing to work with. Kane, Foden, Saka and Bellingham all gathering in the middle for a D party while Trippier and Walker watch is just painful. Literally the highlight of most of our attacking moves at the moment is when they collapse under their own density and Rice steams in to counterpress.

I don't for a second think Southgate is clueless but he's certainly eye-wateringly risk-averse. I don't think he particularly likes it when our games open up, because then we're more of a hostage to lucky counterattacks etc. Something like that. He'd rather bore the absolute t:ts off everyone including his own players, but mostly be in control of the game and on course for a clean sheet.

Edited Thursday at 13:55 by ceefax the cat

[Rob1981]

Absolute state of this pitch

For a Euros qualifier as recently as 2002.  Sometimes you forget how far we have come.

Edited Thursday at 15:45 by Rob1981

[GunmaN1905]

15 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Absolute state of this pitch

For a Euros qualifier as recently as 2002.  Sometimes you forget how far we have come.

Proper football, proper pitch, proper stadium, proper atmosphere.

Feels like everything these days is just copy/paste.