Games 31 and 32: Denmark vs Serbia live from the Fußball Arena München ITV4 8pm AND England vs Slovenia live from the Cologne Stadium ITV1 8pm

[Bootador]

That's the lowest of low bars 

[WillHoward42]

12 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Also, I'm not sure Gareth coached them to miscontrol quite as often as several of them managed today.

Not sure he has coached them for anything

[aiston]

If we are going to be so useless at creating, at least have Trippier as a right back since he's arguably the best crosser in the squad.

 

[eenie]

Just now, aiston said:

 

 

Football stats really are scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel. I hate football stats, football stats nerds, and football stats nerds twitter.

[ajw10]

1 minute ago, Haguey said:

Think Mainoo starts for sure next game

Walker has to start if its the Dutch.. would probably keep Trippier at LB then for defensive solidarity and the odd good ball

Palmer was good but as above Saka must start, he doesn't play left so you kick out Bellingham which I don't think is happening, and besides if you are changing the centre I'd rather Foden moves there and someone went left instead.

think I'm on board with this. Gordon for Foden is what I want to see. 

[sc91]

Mainoo and Palmer on the bench then. 

[Rob1981]

I know we need another two-day inquest about England... but what happened to Serbia ffs?

One shot on target all night, even though they were the only team that knew they wouldn't qualify with a draw going into the games.

[Bliss Seeker]

Don't remember 12 shots

73% possession too, just no answer to the low block. 

The system doesn't work, we need more than 1 change Gareth. 

Sigh. 

[GunmaN1905]

Last night I said that quality can be lacking at times, but that every day of this tournament has been top level entertainment.

I was wrong, luckily group D games were good.

[Pukey]

Ok I like stats and have defended xG so many times, but what in the hell is "real time power"?

[ajw10]

3 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

zero completed dribbles from Palmer fwiw.

should qualify this. It's a small sample size but evidence that he's not the type of player that can play with Kane.

[Bootador]

I don't ****ing know anymore. I don't think Bellingham at 10 works. I don't think Bellingham rotating with Foden (as in swapping positions) works.

We've not tried playing him deeper, so we won't. And we won't drop him.

So we just hope I guess.

Edited Tuesday at 21:22 by Bootador

[RTHerringbone]

@ajw10 is 100% right on this - balance.

I'd much prefer us to line up with something like Rice alongside Wharton / Mainoo, and then Saka right, Bellingham or Foden central, and Gordon or Eze on the left. Stretch the pitch horizontally; make vertical runs.

With that setup you can handle Kane dropping deep because we'd have runners beyond. Saka is our only consistent threat to break the lines at the moment and we have to have at least one more or we're totally pointless and toothless.

I don't see us dropping Kane for Watkins, but if we do, we can then consider only one out of Saka / Gordon / Eze wide, but I don't see why we'd do that. We're ****ing anaemic and I hate it.

[eenie]

Just now, Pukey said:

Ok I like stats and have defended xG so many times, but what in the hell is "real time power"?

****ing hell, I would just like to reiterate my post from about 2 minutes ago on the subject of football stats. "Expected power" ffs.

[Gizmo7]

With Kane dropping so deep, Bellingham looked to be playing upfront for most of the game. Would like to see an average positions map if any of you stats nerds come across one. 

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

Gordon for Foden is what I want to see.

I like this. I'd honestly have Foden / Jude swapping out for each other rather than having them both on the pitch at the same time... really should be nothing wrong about benching one of them and bringing them on as fresh legs in second half. 

[Haguey]

2 minutes ago, Bliss Seeker said:

Don't remember 12 shots

73% possession too, just no answer to the low block. 

The system doesn't work, we need more than 1 change Gareth. 

Sigh. 

Looks like Spains stats against Italy except they scored 

(ignore the quality gap pls)

[Rebs]

Just now, Bootador said:

I don't ****ing know anymore. I don't think Bellingham at 10 works. I don't think Bellingham rotating with Foden works.

We've not tried playing him deeper, so we won't. And we won't drop him.

So we just hope I guess.

This was the match to try that and he didn't. I'm annoyed, as Foden in the middle with Bellingham behind looks like it should work so well. No idea how so many people see that but he doesn't. Also restricting width so much. 

[Barry Cartman]

2 minutes ago, Bootador said:

I don't ****ing know anymore. I don't think Bellingham at 10 works. I don't think Bellingham rotating with Foden (as in swapping positions) works.

We've not tried playing him deeper, so we won't. And we won't drop him.

So we just hope I guess.

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

[Astafjevs]

Saka can't be dropped because of his domestic season + how good he's been for England.

Bellingham can't be dropped because of his domestic season.

Foden can't be dropped because of his domestic season.

Kane can't be dropped because of his domestic season + how good he's been for England + he's one of the best strikers around.

 

The reality is you either keep things as they are, or you have to start ignoring past performances for England, or performances for club, and drop someone for the form player.

I don't know many teams that go on and win tournaments chasing the best XI in the middle of the event. Southgate probably knows this too. If anything it's a sign that you either lack quality (see Italy) or have no set plan or clue as to your best team. Or something else....

[Haguey]

3 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Ok I like stats and have defended xG so many times, but what in the hell is "real time power"?

[Bootador]

I think you're right on Saka tbh. I really like Palmer, but you're spot on he's another ball player and it's probably too much.

But... he progressed the ball so much better than anyone else in that short period, it just helped the play. He's put pressure on Saka at least for mid game (who am I kidding) subs.

[arenaross]

 

 

[aiston]

Nothing will change now from Southgate.

The 3rd group game is the place to try it and he didn't. No way he will try it in the knock out stages.

Very minor changes will be made next game.

[Baptista_8]

15 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

creativity doesn't matter if there's no runners. A balance is needed. If Palmer starts then at least one of Saka/Watkins/Gordon must start

I don't necessarily disagree but he will always find players in dangerous positions, even if they're not running in behind the back line. Making 'killer runs' has never been Ollie's game either but he's got better at it.

[Bliss Seeker]

3 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

Yes. Worst 2 players in the team, and I include Gallagher in that. 

They're just passangers. Don't care what they've done this season, Jude in particular doesn't look bothered and Kane's a huge undroppable captain problem. 

Edited Tuesday at 21:27 by Bliss Seeker

[JJ72]

6 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I know we need another two-day inquest about England... but what happened to Serbia ffs?

One shot on target all night, even though they were the only team that knew they wouldn't qualify with a draw going into the games.

they lost to England, they must be really awful

[WillHoward42]

I think someone else mentioned it

Palmer came on against a tired, booked LB who were more than happy to sit deep and play for the draw.

Fresh legs in this situation is always going to look better than who they’ve replaced when the team have been dire overall.

But there are far worse performers over the last three games than Saka and benching him would be a disaster of a decision.

[eenie]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

Kane is baffling. Surely you either accept that he's going to decide to play as a 10 so you need someone else up top, or you tell him to stay up himself and actually get the midfield to do the job he's trying to drop back to do? He put in a couple of good crosses tonight but he should be on the end of them, not providing them.

And you also need to tell him to try running occasionally. Even a jog would be a good start. He MUST be injured, otherwise his lethargy is just inexcusable.

[Haguey]

Kane was much better in the second half, how much of that was him or the changes around him I dunno, but he still comes too deep and its pointless when no one is running anyway

[WillHoward42]

1 minute ago, eenie said:

Kane is baffling. Surely you either accept that he's going to decide to play as a 10 so you need someone else up top, or you tell him to stay up himself and actually get the midfield to do the job he's trying to drop back to do? He put in a couple of good crosses tonight but he should be on the end of them, not providing them.

And you also need to tell him to try running occasionally. Even a jog would be a good start. He MUST be injured, otherwise his lethargy is just inexcusable.

This all sounds like sensible coaching decisions, to be made by the coach. If only we had a competent coach to make such decisions 

[ajw10]

4 minutes ago, Bootador said:

I think you're right on Saka tbh. I really like Palmer, but you're spot on he's another ball player and it's probably too much.

But... he progressed the ball so much better than anyone else in that short period, it just helped the play. He's put pressure on Saka at least for mid game (who am I kidding) subs.

yeah I don't think Palmer was bad or anything, it was just a bad sub.

Now, if Southgate subbed Palmer and Gordon on for Saka and Foden that would be much better.

Just no respect from Southgate for how a team works and should be set up. 

[RTHerringbone]

3 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

You're right.

I think Kane is an immovable object, but our real conundrum isn't who plays alongside Rice, but who out of Bellingham and Foden starts at 10. Neither of them works on the left, even with this silly dance of switching them between 10 and 11. Saka and Gordon / Eze have to be the wide options, especially in terms of Gordon / Eze on the left - we've been totally impotent on that flank.

[GunmaN1905]

Why exactly can't Bellingham play next to Rice, since that's the position he's kind of been playing his entire career up until this season?

[ajw10]

Kane played a really great ball in the second half to Bellingham. Foden wasn't attacking that left hand side though because that's not his natural game.

Kane won't look great because of how the team is set up.

What was his best tournament, 2018? Alli and Sterling, both runners playing as close to him as possible.

Look at the start of the last World Cup. Kane, Bellingham and Saka played close together. Two runners to play off of Kane. Rashford came in wide left to really stretch the play.

Today we had Bellingham playing LWB. Saka playing RW and Kane playing CDM.

[Pedwar Pump]

I’d drop Kane, Bellingham can do everything Kane can and is quicker and more mobile. Play him as the furthest forward.

[Barry Cartman]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Why exactly can't Bellingham play next to Rice, since that's the position he's kind of been playing his entire career up until this season?

Because apparently it limits Bellingham so we must sacrifice Foden who actually wants to play and stay in that position 

[The_jagster]

10 minutes ago, eenie said:

****ing hell, I would just like to reiterate my post from about 2 minutes ago on the subject of football stats. "Expected power" ffs.

Don't know if it's self-awareness in that an excitable but rubbish local radio commentator having an autobiography is in itself an example of the title.

[martynlcfc]

The narrative is already building around Palmer post match. I don't see him moving the needle over Saka from the start.

Mainoo now must start, and one of Foden/Bellingham should really make way for Gordon. Can't see the latter happening though.

[PaulHartman71]

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Because apparently it limits Bellingham so we must sacrifice Foden who actually wants to play and stay in that position 

To me it looks like England as a team would be better with Bellingham with lower scoring threat because he plays deeper than with any of these other Rice partner options.

[RTHerringbone]

3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Why exactly can't Bellingham play next to Rice, since that's the position he's kind of been playing his entire career up until this season?

Well I think Rice beside Bellingham with Foden at #10. Saka right and Gordon left is the dream™. But Southgate's solution was Connor Gallagher alongside Rice, so......

[SouthCoastRed]

3 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

Cos ITV are total numptys

[aiston]

2 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

One of his highlights they are bigging up of him...the best moment of it is Gordon's pass

 

[mrw072]

11 minutes ago, Bootador said:

I think you're right on Saka tbh. I really like Palmer, but you're spot on he's another ball player and it's probably too much.

But... he progressed the ball so much better than anyone else in that short period, it just helped the play. He's put pressure on Saka at least for mid game (who am I kidding) subs.

I think the trouble with Saka is that he's a bit predictable in what he's going to do.  He always seems to cut inside and I think against a team that sits back and defends it's not always the best option.  

Personally i'd like to see Gordon start as you know he's going to run past players and create space for the likes of Foden.  Palmer definitely should be in contention for a starting place too.

 

[Lucas]

3 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

I just refuse to watch ITV if Pougatch is on. Not surprised it's a load of waffle. I love Ange and Wrighty though. 

[Smallen]

time to be brave like the little mouse hun xox

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, SouthCoastRed said:

Cos ITV are total numptys

Your previous remark was better tbh  

[Pedwar Pump]

The frustration is this tournament is wide open, as every ‘big’ team is a bit underwhelming, so if Southgate could get a tune out of this very very talented squad it’s as easy a big trophy win as you’ll ever get at this level and it looks like he’s totally fumbling it.

[ajw10]

Just now, mrw072 said:

I think the trouble with Saka is that he's a bit predictable in what he's going to do.  He always seems to cut inside and I think against a team that sits back and defends it's not always the best option.  

Personally i'd like to see Gordon start as you know he's going to run past players and create space for the likes of Foden.  Palmer definitely should be in contention for a starting place too.

 

think this is lazy. Saka created Bellingham's goal by going on the outside. Saka is well known for being able to go on the outside too.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but there's no one attacking the spaces to create space for a Saka (or Foden)

If one or two players struggle, it's probably on them. If basically everyone looks lost then it's on the coaching staff