Games 31 and 32: Denmark vs Serbia live from the Fußball Arena München ITV4 8pm AND England vs Slovenia live from the Cologne Stadium ITV1 8pm

[eenie]

Just now, Pukey said:

Ok I like stats and have defended xG so many times, but what in the hell is "real time power"?

****ing hell, I would just like to reiterate my post from about 2 minutes ago on the subject of football stats. "Expected power" ffs.

[Gizmo7]

With Kane dropping so deep, Bellingham looked to be playing upfront for most of the game. Would like to see an average positions map if any of you stats nerds come across one. 

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

Gordon for Foden is what I want to see.

I like this. I'd honestly have Foden / Jude swapping out for each other rather than having them both on the pitch at the same time... really should be nothing wrong about benching one of them and bringing them on as fresh legs in second half. 

[Haguey]

2 minutes ago, Bliss Seeker said:

Don't remember 12 shots

73% possession too, just no answer to the low block. 

The system doesn't work, we need more than 1 change Gareth. 

Sigh. 

Looks like Spains stats against Italy except they scored 

(ignore the quality gap pls)

[Rebs]

Just now, Bootador said:

I don't ****ing know anymore. I don't think Bellingham at 10 works. I don't think Bellingham rotating with Foden works.

We've not tried playing him deeper, so we won't. And we won't drop him.

So we just hope I guess.

This was the match to try that and he didn't. I'm annoyed, as Foden in the middle with Bellingham behind looks like it should work so well. No idea how so many people see that but he doesn't. Also restricting width so much. 

[Barry Cartman]

2 minutes ago, Bootador said:

I don't ****ing know anymore. I don't think Bellingham at 10 works. I don't think Bellingham rotating with Foden (as in swapping positions) works.

We've not tried playing him deeper, so we won't. And we won't drop him.

So we just hope I guess.

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

[Astafjevs]

Saka can't be dropped because of his domestic season + how good he's been for England.

Bellingham can't be dropped because of his domestic season.

Foden can't be dropped because of his domestic season.

Kane can't be dropped because of his domestic season + how good he's been for England + he's one of the best strikers around.

 

The reality is you either keep things as they are, or you have to start ignoring past performances for England, or performances for club, and drop someone for the form player.

I don't know many teams that go on and win tournaments chasing the best XI in the middle of the event. Southgate probably knows this too. If anything it's a sign that you either lack quality (see Italy) or have no set plan or clue as to your best team. Or something else....

[Haguey]

3 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Ok I like stats and have defended xG so many times, but what in the hell is "real time power"?

[Bootador]

I think you're right on Saka tbh. I really like Palmer, but you're spot on he's another ball player and it's probably too much.

But... he progressed the ball so much better than anyone else in that short period, it just helped the play. He's put pressure on Saka at least for mid game (who am I kidding) subs.

[arenaross]

 

 

[aiston]

Nothing will change now from Southgate.

The 3rd group game is the place to try it and he didn't. No way he will try it in the knock out stages.

Very minor changes will be made next game.

[Baptista_8]

15 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

creativity doesn't matter if there's no runners. A balance is needed. If Palmer starts then at least one of Saka/Watkins/Gordon must start

I don't necessarily disagree but he will always find players in dangerous positions, even if they're not running in behind the back line. Making 'killer runs' has never been Ollie's game either but he's got better at it.

[Bliss Seeker]

3 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

Yes. Worst 2 players in the team, and I include Gallagher in that. 

They're just passangers. Don't care what they've done this season, Jude in particular doesn't look bothered and Kane's a huge undroppable captain problem. 

Edited June 25 by Bliss Seeker

[JJ72]

6 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I know we need another two-day inquest about England... but what happened to Serbia ffs?

One shot on target all night, even though they were the only team that knew they wouldn't qualify with a draw going into the games.

they lost to England, they must be really awful

[WillHoward42]

I think someone else mentioned it

Palmer came on against a tired, booked LB who were more than happy to sit deep and play for the draw.

Fresh legs in this situation is always going to look better than who they’ve replaced when the team have been dire overall.

But there are far worse performers over the last three games than Saka and benching him would be a disaster of a decision.

[eenie]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

Kane is baffling. Surely you either accept that he's going to decide to play as a 10 so you need someone else up top, or you tell him to stay up himself and actually get the midfield to do the job he's trying to drop back to do? He put in a couple of good crosses tonight but he should be on the end of them, not providing them.

And you also need to tell him to try running occasionally. Even a jog would be a good start. He MUST be injured, otherwise his lethargy is just inexcusable.

[Haguey]

Kane was much better in the second half, how much of that was him or the changes around him I dunno, but he still comes too deep and its pointless when no one is running anyway

[WillHoward42]

1 minute ago, eenie said:

Kane is baffling. Surely you either accept that he's going to decide to play as a 10 so you need someone else up top, or you tell him to stay up himself and actually get the midfield to do the job he's trying to drop back to do? He put in a couple of good crosses tonight but he should be on the end of them, not providing them.

And you also need to tell him to try running occasionally. Even a jog would be a good start. He MUST be injured, otherwise his lethargy is just inexcusable.

This all sounds like sensible coaching decisions, to be made by the coach. If only we had a competent coach to make such decisions 

[ajw10]

4 minutes ago, Bootador said:

I think you're right on Saka tbh. I really like Palmer, but you're spot on he's another ball player and it's probably too much.

But... he progressed the ball so much better than anyone else in that short period, it just helped the play. He's put pressure on Saka at least for mid game (who am I kidding) subs.

yeah I don't think Palmer was bad or anything, it was just a bad sub.

Now, if Southgate subbed Palmer and Gordon on for Saka and Foden that would be much better.

Just no respect from Southgate for how a team works and should be set up. 

[RTHerringbone]

3 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

No one seems to want to acknowledge it, but Bellingham and Kane are the problem, both ****ing dire yet again 

You're right.

I think Kane is an immovable object, but our real conundrum isn't who plays alongside Rice, but who out of Bellingham and Foden starts at 10. Neither of them works on the left, even with this silly dance of switching them between 10 and 11. Saka and Gordon / Eze have to be the wide options, especially in terms of Gordon / Eze on the left - we've been totally impotent on that flank.

[GunmaN1905]

Why exactly can't Bellingham play next to Rice, since that's the position he's kind of been playing his entire career up until this season?

[ajw10]

Kane played a really great ball in the second half to Bellingham. Foden wasn't attacking that left hand side though because that's not his natural game.

Kane won't look great because of how the team is set up.

What was his best tournament, 2018? Alli and Sterling, both runners playing as close to him as possible.

Look at the start of the last World Cup. Kane, Bellingham and Saka played close together. Two runners to play off of Kane. Rashford came in wide left to really stretch the play.

Today we had Bellingham playing LWB. Saka playing RW and Kane playing CDM.

[Pedwar Pump]

I’d drop Kane, Bellingham can do everything Kane can and is quicker and more mobile. Play him as the furthest forward.

[Barry Cartman]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Why exactly can't Bellingham play next to Rice, since that's the position he's kind of been playing his entire career up until this season?

Because apparently it limits Bellingham so we must sacrifice Foden who actually wants to play and stay in that position 

[The_jagster]

10 minutes ago, eenie said:

****ing hell, I would just like to reiterate my post from about 2 minutes ago on the subject of football stats. "Expected power" ffs.

Don't know if it's self-awareness in that an excitable but rubbish local radio commentator having an autobiography is in itself an example of the title.

[martynlcfc]

The narrative is already building around Palmer post match. I don't see him moving the needle over Saka from the start.

Mainoo now must start, and one of Foden/Bellingham should really make way for Gordon. Can't see the latter happening though.

[PaulHartman71]

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Because apparently it limits Bellingham so we must sacrifice Foden who actually wants to play and stay in that position 

To me it looks like England as a team would be better with Bellingham with lower scoring threat because he plays deeper than with any of these other Rice partner options.

[RTHerringbone]

3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Why exactly can't Bellingham play next to Rice, since that's the position he's kind of been playing his entire career up until this season?

Well I think Rice beside Bellingham with Foden at #10. Saka right and Gordon left is the dream™. But Southgate's solution was Connor Gallagher alongside Rice, so......

[SouthCoastRed]

3 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

Cos ITV are total numptys

[aiston]

2 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

One of his highlights they are bigging up of him...the best moment of it is Gordon's pass

 

[mrw072]

11 minutes ago, Bootador said:

I think you're right on Saka tbh. I really like Palmer, but you're spot on he's another ball player and it's probably too much.

But... he progressed the ball so much better than anyone else in that short period, it just helped the play. He's put pressure on Saka at least for mid game (who am I kidding) subs.

I think the trouble with Saka is that he's a bit predictable in what he's going to do.  He always seems to cut inside and I think against a team that sits back and defends it's not always the best option.  

Personally i'd like to see Gordon start as you know he's going to run past players and create space for the likes of Foden.  Palmer definitely should be in contention for a starting place too.

 

[Lucas]

3 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Why’s there this narrative on ITV that Palmer came on and played like prime Robben or something?  

We were **** the whole game ffs 

I just refuse to watch ITV if Pougatch is on. Not surprised it's a load of waffle. I love Ange and Wrighty though. 

[Smallen]

time to be brave like the little mouse hun xox

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, SouthCoastRed said:

Cos ITV are total numptys

Your previous remark was better tbh  

[Pedwar Pump]

The frustration is this tournament is wide open, as every ‘big’ team is a bit underwhelming, so if Southgate could get a tune out of this very very talented squad it’s as easy a big trophy win as you’ll ever get at this level and it looks like he’s totally fumbling it.

[ajw10]

Just now, mrw072 said:

I think the trouble with Saka is that he's a bit predictable in what he's going to do.  He always seems to cut inside and I think against a team that sits back and defends it's not always the best option.  

Personally i'd like to see Gordon start as you know he's going to run past players and create space for the likes of Foden.  Palmer definitely should be in contention for a starting place too.

 

think this is lazy. Saka created Bellingham's goal by going on the outside. Saka is well known for being able to go on the outside too.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but there's no one attacking the spaces to create space for a Saka (or Foden)

If one or two players struggle, it's probably on them. If basically everyone looks lost then it's on the coaching staff

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, mrw072 said:

I think the trouble with Saka is that he's a bit predictable in what he's going to do.  He always seems to cut inside and I think against a team that sits back and defends it's not always the best option.  

Personally i'd like to see Gordon start as you know he's going to run past players and create space for the likes of Foden.  Palmer definitely should be in contention for a starting place too.

For me the issue with England's wide players isn't predictability, but passiveness. Maybe overthinking.

Did you see how Spanish wingers instantly run at the defense every time they get the ball? Can't tell me Saka doesn't have that quality, but he just doesn't go into his thing right away. Neither does Foden.

Everything is just way too slow. Needs more decisiveness.

That offside goal was the only time a few first touch passes were strung together.

[SouthCoastRed]

Just now, Lucas said:

Your previous remark was better tbh  

True, but I quoted the wrong post, and the blood temperature was marginally lower by the time I’d fixed my **** up

[Ackter]

I shall continue with what I said last few tournaments - either play Kane in midfield or just drop him.

[Baptista_8]

15 minutes ago, WillHoward42 said:

I think someone else mentioned it

Palmer came on against a tired, booked LB who were more than happy to sit deep and play for the draw.

Fresh legs in this situation is always going to look better than who they’ve replaced when the team have been dire overall.

But there are far worse performers over the last three games than Saka and benching him would be a disaster of a decision.

Saka has been our best offensive player IMO so I'm not saying drop him, but Palmer has to come in somewhere.

[Ackter]

THough I bet if you played Kane in midfield he'd start dropping into defence.

[ceefax the cat]

If you prioritise balance at all costs rather than try to shoehorn your best players in, but consider Kane undroppable, what do you get?

Probably either

Gordon and Saka either side of Kane with Foden behind them and Bellingham / Rice as the pivot, same back 4 as now

or

Saka at LWB, Trippier/Trent RWB, Rice and Bellingham in the middle and Gordon + someone either side of Kane

Either way, it's tempting to conclude that Gordon's energy and willingness to get in behind are something we need if Kane is to be Kaneing around up front like that.

Edited June 25 by ceefax the cat

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Everything is just way too slow. Needs more decisiveness.

 

The tempo was far too passive and allowed Slovenia to retain their defensive shape which meant we couldn't really get through. Appreciate it's probably hard work in that heat to play at a high tempo but it was very easy for them as we kept coming inside and had very little to no wide threat at all. 

[Robson 07]

To start/drop Trent and then sub Gallagher today at HT is just an obvious sign of poor management.  How could he (GS) think either were the answer.  Add that to selecting Shaw; not taking Grealish and all the other problems.

The one thing that needs to happen from here on is we need pace in this side.  Pace in the build up, pace to make runs in behind; pace for 1 on 1s.  It will start to fix a few problems and give ball players the space they need.

At this point, to me, Kane looks more and more like a substitute.  Someone to bring on when the game has been stretched open.  He's not providing pace, not pressing, and not playing high enough to at least occupy a central defender or two enough. 

 

[ajw10]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

For me the issue with England's wide players isn't predictability, but passiveness. Maybe overthinking.

Did you see how Spanish wingers instantly run at the defense every time they get the ball? Can't tell me Saka doesn't have that quality, but he just doesn't go into his thing right away. Neither does Foden.

Everything is just way too slow. Needs more decisiveness.

That offside goal was the only time a few first touch passes were strung together.

at Arsenal, Saka will have White overlapping or underlapping to create space. Odegaard obviously contributes too.

At City Foden will have a Gvardiol supporting with one of their many midfielders supporting.

Walker cannot consistently do that anymore, so Saka is isolated most of the time. Trippier hasn't done it at all for Foden. 

[mrmeee17]

Think Saka gets subbed because Southgate's managing his minutes. He's probably playing with a minor injury or something.

[Bootador]

Will never happen, but I quite like this

 

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

8 minutes ago, Ackter said:

I shall continue with what I said last few tournaments - either play Kane in midfield or just drop him.

Or maybe call Tuchel and get some tips on how to play Kane effectively.

[noikeee]

I thought you guys were better this match than the ones before  which is really, really damning

You're still making the final, because look at the draw, the seas have parted