Games 31 and 32: Denmark vs Serbia live from the Fußball Arena München ITV4 8pm AND England vs Slovenia live from the Cologne Stadium ITV1 8pm

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, mrw072 said:

I think the trouble with Saka is that he's a bit predictable in what he's going to do.  He always seems to cut inside and I think against a team that sits back and defends it's not always the best option.  

Personally i'd like to see Gordon start as you know he's going to run past players and create space for the likes of Foden.  Palmer definitely should be in contention for a starting place too.

For me the issue with England's wide players isn't predictability, but passiveness. Maybe overthinking.

Did you see how Spanish wingers instantly run at the defense every time they get the ball? Can't tell me Saka doesn't have that quality, but he just doesn't go into his thing right away. Neither does Foden.

Everything is just way too slow. Needs more decisiveness.

That offside goal was the only time a few first touch passes were strung together.

[SouthCoastRed]

Just now, Lucas said:

Your previous remark was better tbh  

True, but I quoted the wrong post, and the blood temperature was marginally lower by the time I’d fixed my **** up

[Ackter]

I shall continue with what I said last few tournaments - either play Kane in midfield or just drop him.

[Baptista_8]

15 minutes ago, WillHoward42 said:

I think someone else mentioned it

Palmer came on against a tired, booked LB who were more than happy to sit deep and play for the draw.

Fresh legs in this situation is always going to look better than who they’ve replaced when the team have been dire overall.

But there are far worse performers over the last three games than Saka and benching him would be a disaster of a decision.

Saka has been our best offensive player IMO so I'm not saying drop him, but Palmer has to come in somewhere.

[Ackter]

THough I bet if you played Kane in midfield he'd start dropping into defence.

[ceefax the cat]

If you prioritise balance at all costs rather than try to shoehorn your best players in, but consider Kane undroppable, what do you get?

Probably either

Gordon and Saka either side of Kane with Foden behind them and Bellingham / Rice as the pivot, same back 4 as now

or

Saka at LWB, Trippier/Trent RWB, Rice and Bellingham in the middle and Gordon + someone either side of Kane

Either way, it's tempting to conclude that Gordon's energy and willingness to get in behind are something we need if Kane is to be Kaneing around up front like that.

Edited Tuesday at 21:46 by ceefax the cat

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Everything is just way too slow. Needs more decisiveness.

 

The tempo was far too passive and allowed Slovenia to retain their defensive shape which meant we couldn't really get through. Appreciate it's probably hard work in that heat to play at a high tempo but it was very easy for them as we kept coming inside and had very little to no wide threat at all. 

[Robson 07]

To start/drop Trent and then sub Gallagher today at HT is just an obvious sign of poor management.  How could he (GS) think either were the answer.  Add that to selecting Shaw; not taking Grealish and all the other problems.

The one thing that needs to happen from here on is we need pace in this side.  Pace in the build up, pace to make runs in behind; pace for 1 on 1s.  It will start to fix a few problems and give ball players the space they need.

At this point, to me, Kane looks more and more like a substitute.  Someone to bring on when the game has been stretched open.  He's not providing pace, not pressing, and not playing high enough to at least occupy a central defender or two enough. 

 

[ajw10]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

For me the issue with England's wide players isn't predictability, but passiveness. Maybe overthinking.

Did you see how Spanish wingers instantly run at the defense every time they get the ball? Can't tell me Saka doesn't have that quality, but he just doesn't go into his thing right away. Neither does Foden.

Everything is just way too slow. Needs more decisiveness.

That offside goal was the only time a few first touch passes were strung together.

at Arsenal, Saka will have White overlapping or underlapping to create space. Odegaard obviously contributes too.

At City Foden will have a Gvardiol supporting with one of their many midfielders supporting.

Walker cannot consistently do that anymore, so Saka is isolated most of the time. Trippier hasn't done it at all for Foden. 

[mrmeee17]

Think Saka gets subbed because Southgate's managing his minutes. He's probably playing with a minor injury or something.

[Bootador]

Will never happen, but I quite like this

 

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

8 minutes ago, Ackter said:

I shall continue with what I said last few tournaments - either play Kane in midfield or just drop him.

Or maybe call Tuchel and get some tips on how to play Kane effectively.

[noikeee]

I thought you guys were better this match than the ones before  which is really, really damning

You're still making the final, because look at the draw, the seas have parted 

[ceefax the cat]

7 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

at Arsenal, Saka will have White overlapping or underlapping to create space. Odegaard obviously contributes too.

At City Foden will have a Gvardiol supporting with one of their many midfielders supporting.

Walker cannot consistently do that anymore, so Saka is isolated most of the time. Trippier hasn't done it at all for Foden. 

It's true that the left side is a massive cul-de-sac. Foden's underlapping runs were the only hint of incisiveness. This is where we come back to Gordon who will simply bulldoze his way to the byline over and over again

[GunmaN1905]

7 minutes ago, Lucas said:

The tempo was far too passive and allowed Slovenia to retain their defensive shape which meant we couldn't really get through. Appreciate it's probably hard work in that heat to play at a high tempo but it was very easy for them as we kept coming inside and had very little to no wide threat at all. 

That's where coaching comes in. Mechanisms, movements, position changes to unsettle the defense and create an opening.
But England just has none of that.

The only way Southgate's team can look good is if the opposition is trying to attack, but is bad in transition.

8 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

at Arsenal, Saka will have White overlapping or underlapping to create space. Odegaard obviously contributes too.

At City Foden will have a Gvardiol supporting with one of their many midfielders supporting.

Walker cannot consistently do that anymore, so Saka is isolated most of the time. Trippier hasn't done it at all for Foden. 

Obviously can't do much in 1v2s, but still, if both Saka and Foden are 150 million players, then you'd expect them to create something out of nothing at least once or twice against individually poor team like Slovenia. Even in transition (previous matches), the team looks like they're not well-drilled and how to execute. Which should be the strongest bit of Southgate's team since he's been with them for so long.

[craigcwwe]

How can you have so much attacking talent and produce three drab performances like that?!

Literally three games from us in the groups of the same sort of performance. 

Not sure what this setup is from Southgate. Not sure if the players are knackered or just doing enough to get out of the groups and saving their energy for the business end of this competition. 

 

[WillHoward42]

13 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Saka has been our best offensive player IMO so I'm not saying drop him, but Palmer has to come in somewhere.

Maybe so, but he doesn’t come in for our best offensive player so far

[noikeee]

4 minutes ago, Bootador said:

Will never happen, but I quite like this

 

I love JJ Bull but Rice isn't a centerback. 

He's close though. Just ****ing play Bellingham next to Rice behind Foden. You could even keep the idea of Stones moving up Man City style, to midfield, which makes it a really solid rest defence 3-2 structure of Gomez-Guehi-Walker behind Rice-Stones, which in turn totally frees up Bellingham to run forward in a segundo volante kind of way. Letting England play a wide 4 in possession of Gordon-Foden-Bellingham-Saka behind Kane. Whilst remaining perfectly safe. 

But for whatever reason Gareth wants to be EVEN SAFER than that.  Against Slovenia. Whilst already qualified.

[Haguey]

Ultimately if we don't do well at this tournament (lol) then I think the decision not to take a fit proper left back has been the crucially worst one as the knock on effects have been so dire elsewhere too

[Haguey]

Maybe he thought Trippier could be his Spinazzola even though he's a very different player...

[The_jagster]

Just now, Haguey said:

Maybe he thought Trippier could be his Spinazzola even though he's a very different player...

Insigne cut inside, Spinazzola was right footed, it all makes sense

[Baptista_8]

Southgate thinks we're just not getting the breaks in front of goal 😂

[aiston]

 

 

[themadsheep2001]

Going to say it again:

Bellingham back to CM, Gordon to the left, Foden and 10. And honestly at this rate (but will never happen) Kane to the bench

[GunmaN1905]

8 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Insigne cut inside, Spinazzola was right footed, it all makes sense

All Southgate needs is for Trippier to have a career-ending injury in the next game to bring the lads together.

 

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

Everybody piling on England, and rightfully so, but they're not the only big team underperforming. France have been just as dire, and Italy was also mostly rubbish. The scary teams are all in the other bracket, and England might just somehow stumble into the Finals.

[Bootador]

That's why everyone is so mad imo.

They still may go far/all the way because the way the chips have fallen. It's very much on, and if it's off it will be very much on him for not getting a functioning team together.

[PaulHartman71]

Just sums it up really 

At no point during that game did Slovenia have any real intention to try and score or attack at all. But we still did nothing really. It’s **** poor with the talent we have in that team. 

[Synthahols_for_Girls]

We're not Creative enough, We're not positive enough 

True back then, true now 

All this slow sideways / backwards passing, so dull so garbage, nobody looking for space, nobody looking to break down the flanks, nothing happening 
I thought Allardyce ball was bad, but this is way worse 

England go gung ho attack in a game and loose 4-3 or even 4-1 I'll take, at least they gave it a go, this passionless turged s$%£ frack that I have many many better things to do with my time 

[JJ72]

Don't worry lads it's all coming together apparently.  Delusion and he wonders why there's a negative atmosphere from the fans

[Divinity]

It's entertaining to see England turn generations of the best attacking players around into the most dull team to watch decade after decade.

e: and continually misdiagnose where the problems lie

Edited Wednesday at 05:50 by Divinity

[TalkSport]

The fact that the CM change was only one made early on, I can’t see it changing for the L16 game. Three games of this set up now, and it’ll continue IMO.

Feels Southgate is fixated on it because he believes Shaw at LB would transform it, issue being, Shaw is highly unlikely to play this tournament and we didn’t take another natural LB. 

[av3ry]

I make it a 50% chance if playing Netherlands and a 50% chance of playing the third place team out of Belgium/Romania/Slovakia/Ukraine.

 

[VamPook]

Moving Saka to leftback sounds as bad as when that Indian pundit said Gerrard's best position is rightback 

[eenie]

To be fair there are quite a few players who could be moved to left back. Left back in the changing room.

[oche balboa]

10 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Jagster beat me to it.

Oh Mark Wright...... 

[PaulHartman71]

For me the post match interviews after the game were a big concern. You can see from Southgate’s tone that he knows he’s finished and has run out of ideas. Kane’s trying to convince himself they’re going to hit form, talking about being ready to see games out in extra time or penalties if it comes to it like he knows we’re gonna struggle to see teams off in 90 minutes. Cant remember if it was Southgate or Kane but one of them said we’re playing top quality sides we can’t expect to beat them 3/4-0. Mainoo just seemed happy to be there. 

[Wiggins Top Boys]

9 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Going to say it again:

Bellingham back to CM, Gordon to the left, Foden and 10. And honestly at this rate (but will never happen) Kane to the bench

I thought Mainoo did a great job of passing and moving and moving between the lines to find space and receive the ball. better than we've seen from TAA or Gallagher in that position BUT Bellingham can do this naturally also and allows more attacking pace/creativity in the forward line. it's a no brainer

[Pukey]

33 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

For me the post match interviews after the game were a big concern. You can see from Southgate’s tone that he knows he’s finished and has run out of ideas. Kane’s trying to convince himself they’re going to hit form, talking about being ready to see games out in extra time or penalties if it comes to it like he knows we’re gonna struggle to see teams off in 90 minutes. Cant remember if it was Southgate or Kane but one of them said we’re playing top quality sides we can’t expect to beat them 3/4-0. Mainoo just seemed happy to be there. 

Tbf I don't think we can be expecting to beat these 3/4-0, but we should be expecting to win and create chances against Slovenia and we didn't at all really. And it was still somehow an improvement on the Denmark game  

[JJ72]

Slovenia are ranked 57th in the world and we created a scarcity of chances. We made them look top 10

[thefmveteran86]

Do we think we'll see Toney and/or Watkins in this tournament?

[RTHerringbone]

One thing I'd totally forgotten about was Karen Carney absolutely BELLOWING into her mic at the pitch-side section with Laura Woods 

 

 

[arenaross]

We had 20 minutes of Watkins against Denmark but I think it's pretty clear there's no plan B. 

[GunmaN1905]

[TalkSport]

Wanted a coin flip  

[PaulHartman71]

I can’t see how Kane is playing like this for Bayern and breaking Lewandowski’s scoring records there. I don’t get what he’s doing. Was at least 3-4 times where he was either putting a ball into the box himself or someone else was but he was nowhere near the box. 

Why is he doing it?  

[ham_aka_stam]

Bit of a hot-take.

The game was boring - 100%.  But we all know by now, surely, that Southgate plays the group games as low-intensity rehearsals for the knockout games against more expansive teams?

That's why he's got them playing with the ball to feet so much, being fairly static with the personnel/tactics and not necessarily making big calls early to go out and attack, because he's practicing for games where for ball retention is key, and trying to get the players playing together well.

Viewed from that lens it was OK, certainly a better overall performance than Denmark, and we were more in control than the Serbia game, which admittedly had a better result.  The passing improved massively once Mainoo came on (he's not the messiah, he's just a different player to Trent/Gallagher and likes those short quick passes rather than Trent's hollywood balls and Gallagher's suicide ones).

The fact it's taken Southgate this long to realise TAA isn't the answer to the second midfield spot is concerning (or maybe it'd work better if he actually had runners to hit...), as is the lethargy, niggly arguments between players, and the individual mistakes being made.

My biggest concern though, are the number of players we're asking to do something different to what they do for their clubs.  Players (sportspeople in general) play best when playing instinctively.  And whilst coaching something counter-instinctive is fine if you have the time to embed it (and a system around that supports it) I don't think that's the case in international management or specifically this England setup.  

1. Not giving Kane runners around him means his instinct to drop deep and play passes - a dangerous asset when used properly - is wasted, and it's counter intuitive as there's then no-one in the box
2. Telling Kane to stay up wastes his talents, and potentially leads to him dropping out of frustration anyway, getting in the 10s way.  It also makes play predictable.
3. Playing Foden on the left, whilst he can play here, he isn't playing naturally and doesn't have the players (runners) around him to make him shine, and potentially further condenses the 10 space when he naturally drifts in
4. Tripper is possibly the worst type of FB to have behind Foden too, it's working ok defensively, but he's having to play counter-instinctively to offer overlaps, where he then has no natural blueprint for what to do.  The answer is to underlap, but that weakens Foden as a "winger", and again, further compresses the centre of the pitch.
5. Bellingham looks so conflicted at 10, and since he was told to stop trying to do it all is playing like someone torn between what he wants to do and what the coach/team want him to do.  The experiment with him and Foden switching is nice, but it's not natural, so it's happening in a slow, laboured way.  He's used to playing deeper, being involved in everything, and being the guy making plays.  With Kane and Foden in the team, he can't be that guy all the time.
6. Playing TAA in CM is an experiment best left to club football / the bin.

I would bring Bellingham into CM, pull Foden inside (they both want the ball, get them where they can use it) and play Gordon on the left.   That way the only real issue is whether Kane can stay up, if not, sub him for Watkins. The Left Back is then the last issue and I think Trippier coming inside is far from the worst idea.

Hopefully Southgate's theory comes good in the next game(s) otherwise it's made me look a twit for writing this mini-defence of him and given the players and the fans a frustrating first three games for nothing.  I know we haven't been helped by the teams we've been playing as they aren't expansive, and are sitting deep to limit us.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

[Rob1981]

I would be all in on the cautious, low-risk, energy-conserving group stage if we looked more organised with the ball... see Scotland 2020 and USA 2022 for reference.

But auditioning three different CMs after the games have already started.  It really doesn't look like we know our plan this time.

I'm backing Mainoo to come out of leftfield and be the "undroppable" missing link that people didn't necessarily expect to play.  This year's Trevor Sinclair.

[eenie]

59 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

That's why he's got them playing with the ball to feet so much, being fairly static with the personnel/tactics and not necessarily making big calls early to go out and attack, because he's practicing for games where for ball retention is key, and trying to get the players playing together well.

Nae offence, but this is absolute pish  If he's trying to achieve what you claim he is, then he's not succeeding, because the players are not "playing together well" whatsoever