FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[Brentford Alan]

4 minutes ago, Cavjj said:

On scrapping FM25: I wonder how the Premier League would react given the new much-heralded licencing deal? I would imagine SI / FM Franchise are contracted on the releases that they make. I suspect that alone would make scrapping FM25 problematic.

Can't imagine they'll be too fussed, they'll have been paid their licencing fee regardless of whether the game comes out or not. 

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

4 minutes ago, QWERTYOP said:

Shambles after shambles. Only the hardcore will buy a game in March for a season that ends a couple of months later. And then they’ll want people to buy again in November? Just can the thing and skip to the next one. Utter mess. Frankly, Miles should go for the way this has been handled. 

I think a huge problem for people will be how realistic is it for them to release a game in March and then a brand new one in FM26 just 7/8 months later in October/November - which is already late for a yearly sports title where the main leagues start in August

I think they have to make a genuine choice here to either cancel FM25 entirely or be upfront and say we will not see FM26 next year either. It’s not a good idea to keep pushing back the release dates of yearly games that far…won’t end well.

[KeegBCFC]

7 minutes ago, forameuss said:

For all the haughty march down the garden to pick up the pitchforks, there's no real way to know what has gone on between "here's our roadmap, and it'll be released at the end of November" and "yeah, it's going to be March lads, soz".  It makes little sense that they would go through with the whole stuff they did last week if they didn't think there was a chance of releasing something functional when they said they would.  It's very possible that they simply came across something that look their idea of November and gleefully kicked it to death.  It doesn't matter how close you are to release, it happens.  If there really is some nefarious plan to this to try and extort pre-order money from people and hope they won't refund, they wouldn't be announcing this now, and could have strung things along by being vague enough with their roadmap announcements. 

And also, one point about whether it's worth releasing 25 and not just waiting until 26.  I wouldn't be surprised if they've not already got a massive package of licenses purchased that only entitle them to use next season.  They're already in damage limitation mode, you really think they're not just going to take the hit of not releasing a title at all, but also potentially waste that not-insignificant license money?  No chance.

Ultimately a March release is incredibly disappointing, but with pressure off, it could well be the most stable title we've had in a while, and give a chance to add some stuff that would have never made November.  

We were promised the "most polished version to date" with FM24, and by the time the final update in March rolled around, there were still countless bugs causing issues left, right and centre. It is the same every year, they toss the game in the bin in March to work on the next one, just carrying over the issues. I have zero faith that delaying until March will bring a more stable game.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Why would it be disgraceful? 
 

Most 'playtimes' on games now if you complete one are somewhere from 10-30 hours. Why is 6 months disgraceful? 

Because reeeeee basically.

You're right, the playtime aspect doesn't really hold water as most people will almost certainly get more pure hours on it as most games, whether you're getting 6 months out of it or 12.  The "buying 2 in 6 months" doesn't really either, if you're buying both 25 and 26, it doesn't really matter financially if you buy 25 in November or March.

[Lord Rowell]

Refund requested from Steam.

First of all I think SI have made the right call in delaying the game if they think its not ready.

I've been on the positive outlook side of this throughout. However, I have to say now that it should have been clear well before now that the game wasn't going to be ready on time. It is poor poor performance from SI and SEGA.

I'm not calling for anyone to be sacked etc (I suspect the staff have been through hell the last few months tbh) - but, I really do think we need to hear from Miles Jacobsen directly about this, in detail, and with a lot of humility. I personally think he's pushed people and everything too hard and the chickens have come home to roost now.

[Beccy25]

First time posting but been playing and purchased every PC version since 2005, also used to get the mobile version before moving to WFH in lockdown, have to say this is not very good at all. I will be getting a refund on my pre order and given how much SI talk about listening to everyone we can only hope that is true and an official  database update for 24 is made available in the coming weeks. 

[JAwtunes]

5 minutes ago, davehanson said:

CM3 was fine though

Maybe they mean CM4.  I think that's the one that was massively delayed, not sure though.

[Conardo]

This. Forget "25" .... They should take the time and release 26 in Nov 25 .... if they have the money to survive... on the other hand it will be chaotic - 6 months between 2 versions?

Edited Thursday at 14:50 by Conardo

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Brentford Alan said:

Can't imagine they'll be too fussed, they'll have been paid their licencing fee regardless of whether the game comes out or not. 

I don't know...I imagine there would be some weight to thinking that a licence subject would want their licence to be used, and probably put some legal language around it, even though they've already pocketed the money.  But still, whether that's true or not, SI are still pouring money down a big pit if they end up not using those licenses.  I'd be interested to see what the proportion of what the game "costs" to develop is assigned purely to licensing.  I imagine it's a fair whack.

[Spurs08]

March is a crap time of year for launch. But November isn't exactly ideal, either. Arguably the best time of year might be early-mid June - lots of people wanting a football fix during the off-season, lots of excitement if there's a Euros or World Cup, and the choice of either building your squad ahead of the new season, or playing with the transfers made so far with periodic data updates. Wouldn't be shocked if FM25 comes out somewhere between March and June now, and then FM26 follows in June 2026.

[vikeologist]

4 minutes ago, danmcconnell1 said:

Agree with this point. I think the gripe the community have is that the PR teams were plugging, heavily, pre-orders for a game those in dev knew full well, was nowhere near ready for the original release date, which was later than normal anyway. 

Honesty and integrity goes a long way for loyal fans and it feels like we're being lied to constantly at the minute.

Yes, although I'm not particularly angry about the delay, and I don't want to overstate the reasons for my growing disillusionment with SI, there is an element of feeling that SI are not always completely upfront about problems. which on one level is understandable. it probably wouldn't be a great marketing strategy to constantly emphasise their failings.

But I do think the statement today was a step in the right direction. Imagine if they'd kept pushing it back fortnight by fortnight, all the time assuring us that everything was basically fine.

[andu1]

I also don't expect we will have FM 26 in Oct/Nov 2025... It will probably be out in 2026.

[megapit1991]

If FM25 is delayed until March, gonna be playable with all the patches/updates by the end of July, and in November (?)
FM26 is released, I'm wondering, in that short period of time how updated the FM26 will be compared to FM25?
IMO, they should abandon FM25, release an updated database for FM24 and focus on FM26.

[samrnpage]

As many have stated here, I fully believe they should skip a year and go full steam for FM26. Give themselves an entire extra development cycle to get it right. 

I know how corporate deals happen behind scenes though, they might have no choice to release a yearly version on a legal basis. (Think advertiser's on the billboards in the match engine that are now getting months less advertisement due to the delay and might be a bit annoyed by this and of course a whole year is even worse) 

 If they need revenue im sure a £5.99 Database update for FM24, some will purchase it. Some like myself will probably just use the steam workshop out of principle though.

I also feel terrible for the smaller content creators on YouTube and the likes. Views are going be through the floor and their incomes will half. 

 

 

 

[jimbo22]

1 minute ago, Spurs08 said:

March is a crap time of year for launch. But November isn't exactly ideal, either. Arguably the best time of year might be early-mid June - lots of people wanting a football fix during the off-season, lots of excitement if there's a Euros or World Cup, and the choice of either building your squad ahead of the new season, or playing with the transfers made so far with periodic data updates. Wouldn't be shocked if FM25 comes out somewhere between March and June now, and then FM26 follows in June 2026.

Its not going to happen. SI will lose millions if they dont release it. Companies dont just walk away from that money. Higher ups at Sega wont allow it. 

[kiwityke1983]

13 minutes ago, forameuss said:

For all the haughty march down the garden to pick up the pitchforks, there's no real way to know what has gone on between "here's our roadmap, and it'll be released at the end of November" and "yeah, it's going to be March lads, soz".  It makes little sense that they would go through with the whole stuff they did last week if they didn't think there was a chance of releasing something functional when they said they would.  It's very possible that they simply came across something that look their idea of November and gleefully kicked it to death.  It doesn't matter how close you are to release, it happens.  If there really is some nefarious plan to this to try and extort pre-order money from people and hope they won't refund, they wouldn't be announcing this now, and could have strung things along by being vague enough with their roadmap announcements. 

And also, one point about whether it's worth releasing 25 and not just waiting until 26.  I wouldn't be surprised if they've not already got a massive package of licenses purchased that only entitle them to use next season.  They're already in damage limitation mode, you really think they're not just going to take the hit of not releasing a title at all, but also potentially waste that not-insignificant license money?  No chance.

Ultimately a March release is incredibly disappointing, but with pressure off, it could well be the most stable title we've had in a while, and give a chance to add some stuff that would have never made November.  

It was pretty obvious that as soon as they avoided even using real in game screenshots for steam, instead using  obvious mock ups that the game was in danger of not being ready for November.

The absolute copium people were huffing saying SI were just waiting to wow us was always that weapons grade copium.

That being said I respect SI for delaying the game rather releasing an unfinished mess.

And beta speculation thread is back on the menu boys!

 

[davehanson]

And, can we be clear - if this releases in March, you won't get 6 months of playtime. 

IF FM26 comes out in it's usual slot of early November you will get 8 months playtime. 8 months for £35 - under £1 a week. Nobody can say that is poor. I have been critical of the way SI have been, but to say their games are not good value is total disrespectful and wrong. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

How can we trust in a release in March after two delays? If SI is so convinced that Unity gives us a far better product, make it more expensive in November, but most of people don’t want a release in March.

 

And I hope Miles comes to apologize and say the thruth, because the roadmap was a lie that they know it was a lie

[renato.]

20 minutes ago, forameuss said:

So how long exactly does it take to move a creaking in-house engine over to Unity then since you seem to have an idea of what's acceptable?

I don't know, the point is that SI should have been a lot clearer during the whole process and they weren't.

[jmlima]

Find amusing people on this thread. There's been people saying it was obvious the game release date was the nov 26th, no way they were covering their behinds with 'from'. Now there's people saying delay to march is the right decision. How the heck do you know? How the heck can anyone think SI is in control of anything regarding release dates at this stage? How do all these delays tie with 'we have no time to better feature x so we are removing it'. Is there time now? If not, why not given you are delaying the project by another 4 months?

[forameuss]

6 minutes ago, KeegBCFC said:

We were promised the "most polished version to date" with FM24, and by the time the final update in March rolled around, there were still countless bugs causing issues left, right and centre. It is the same every year, they toss the game in the bin in March to work on the next one, just carrying over the issues. I have zero faith that delaying until March will bring a more stable game.

"Most Polished" is relative.  The best player at my club is still going to get rinsed at a better club.  24 probably was the best title they've released, even though it was full of issues.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want about what 25 is going to be.  It stands the best chance of changing what the series has become with the change to Unity, but what that actually means, nobody knows

[Rodrigogc]

In my opinion they could deliver the unfinished game in november as a Beta, people are used ot it anyways. 

[danmcconnell1]

2 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

Yes, although I'm not particularly angry about the delay, and I don't want to overstate the reasons for my growing disillusionment with SI, there is an element of feeling that SI are not always completely upfront about problems. which on one level is understandable. it probably wouldn't be a great marketing strategy to constantly emphasise their failings.

But I do think the statement today was a step in the right direction. Imagine if they'd kept pushing it back fortnight by fortnight, all the time assuring us that everything was basically fine.

Agree with that again, no company is going to outwardly admit to every failing, however in this area, you'll get found out by the quality of your product due to the volume of people accessing it.

Again, my personal gripe is the hard marketing when they clearly knew there were big issues, so big it's caused a pretty big delay compared to the original release date. They can't be surprised when the uptake on FM25 is low by releasing in March 2025.

[jenvaskes]

I appreciate their decision. I think they should just fold it and work toward 2026, and give us an updated database for 2025 in the 2024 game.

All the best for the dev team, it must be a stressful time for them

[t777mls]

Why get everyone to pre-order if they had any inclination the delay would be that long!? 
 

pointless it coming out in March! Preorder cancelled and will wait for FM26!

[jmlima]

2 minutes ago, renato. said:

I don't know, the point is that SI should have been a lot clearer during the whole process and they weren't.

Judging by others who did it, sort of two years depending on resourcing. And this was without having to find a way to do great 3d in unity. Just converting code from (presumably) c++ to c# must have been hellish.

[irish kopite]

Firstly, the delay should be used to change the release cycle and get FM26 out just after the closure of the summer transfer window. I don't see the sense in releasing a game in November but as SI were stuck to the 12 month development cycle I could see why that became the case. However this long delay changes things. I'd be in favour of scrapping FM25 altogether. When that development blog came out and Miles announced he was cutting all travel etc to concentrate on FM25, I think a hardnosed, ruthless decision needed to be taken then to scrap FM25 and tweak FM24 for an October release. Release a data update, iron out some kinks like recruitment focuses and charge maybe 25 quid for the updated game with a loyalty offer of perhaps 15 pound for those who purchased FM24. SI can't even charge now for this updated product due to the lack of clear managerial direction and loss of good faith and goodwill.

The fact that SI began to take pre-orders in particular and produce this unlockeable roadmap farce is an absolutely dreadful look. It was obvious nonsense. It is disgraceful in fact to treat what is a loyal customer base as idiots. No ifs, ands, buts or maybes. At this point, I think if I was a SEGA executive, I'd be seeking the resignation of Miles unfortunately and recalibrating  the entire SI operation to focus all efforts on the next 11 months and the release of a top class product in FM26.

 

[(sic)]

Can't say I'm too surprised.

 

They didn't have the exact dates on the roadmap, meaning they didn't know when these features would be ready for showcase. 

That's the main reason why I didn't preorder, as I basically haven't seen any in game footage at all, and it wasn't guaranteed to even launch in the next couple of months.

 

The only concern I have is, at what stage is the game at this moment actually? It still seems pretty early in development, which is concerning. If it was somewhere near release, they absolutely would have some stuff to show us, which doesn't seem to be the case yet.

 

 

[aj6658]

I have given SI a ton of **** about the last few editions where the game has been tiny upgrades (headline features being frankly a joke or reskins) but this is 100% the right decision and I commend them for making the decision but they should have had the foresight to do this months ago. If they need another 5 months, this would have been clear ages ago but still, needed to be done. 

 

It was clear as day that this game was no where near ready for launch but by the sounds of it the whole point of Unity is more than just graphical. Its releasing resource by making development so much efficient (the plan was on the fly updates) so each edition should be easier to build for.

Sucks but 100% right decision. Question now is what will FM26 cycle look like

 

[jcw163]

9 minutes ago, JAwtunes said:

Maybe they mean CM4.  I think that's the one that was massively delayed, not sure though.

CM3 came out in March 1999, having been delayed (also it was broken) - 4 was also delayed to the spring I think.

[megapit1991]

Imagine if FM had a competitor...

 

[Lempicka]

I bet Miles is gutted he cancelled his holiday now. 

Oh well, back FM24 and answering the same press conference questions over and over...

[jmlima]

6 minutes ago, megapit1991 said:

If FM25 is delayed until March, gonna be playable with all the patches/updates by the end of July, and in November (?)
FM26 is released, I'm wondering, in that short period of time how updated the FM26 will be compared to FM25?
IMO, they should abandon FM25, release an updated database for FM24 and focus on FM26.

good question. Assuming they drop 25 and start motoring on 26, including also those features that were dropped from 25 to allow it to be released in november (insert LOL), they will stop patching 25 by the time they are ready to release 26, which means if 25 is a dog, it will continue to be a dog.

[kiwityke1983]

15 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

Whatever work needs to be done is better than release a football game in MARCH. 

 

Ok, FM, that is the franchise that made me happier than anybody else, has failed with FM25. Fine, but at least, skip this year and gave the people only a database update, even for twenty pounds.

 

But releasing a football game in March is lilke open a ski station on June or to schedule a beach trip on January

We people from New Zealand are a funny bunch so those dates are actually the traditional times to do those things 😂 

[FourFiveOne]

They should just cancel FM25 altogether or release it for half the price or less in March, using it as an FM26 beta version where players can report bugs and issues. Meanwhile then they should be working on revamping international management and getting it in for a new era = new yearly release date in September, after the closure of the european top and subtop transfer markets. This will also attract more players to play FM who were put off by the game's late release date in November.

Lets be honest. Most of the FM players would prefer the game to be released in September rather than November. This would be a big improvement and club's real life season's are only in their first quarter far instead of -almost- halfway in November.

Think about it SI.

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

It was pretty obvious that as soon as they avoided even using real in game screenshots for steam, instead using  obvious mock ups that the game was in danger of not being ready for November.

The absolute copium people were huffing saying SI were just waiting to wow us was always that weapons grade copium.

That being said I respect SI for delaying the game rather releasing an unfinished mess.

And beta speculation thread is back on the menu boys!

 

Everything's obvious in hindsight.  To be honest, I don't think I saw anyone saying that SI were waiting to "wow us".  I thought the screenshots chosen were odd, and fully expected that things would look a lot different on release.

I'm not saying it wasn't troubled before - it clearly was.  But I think creating this narrative that they've known for months that there was no chance of meeting November is just filling in a narrative that people are wanting to believe. It could be true of course, but all I'm saying is that things can change very quickly, and given what they were trying to do, with an already pressured team, it's probably more likely that they fully intended to meet the original date, until they suddenly realised there was no chance.  Then they fully intended November, did all their marketing, and then something really, really bad came up that meant they just couldn't release it.  This is about as close to the nuclear button that they could push that isn't not releasing at all.  If they were planning this all along, they wouldn't have voluntarily piled all that pressure on themselves just a week ago by giving another underwhelming update.

[CalumF]

Gutted. 

March is no use. October/November release dates have always worked wonders for me. Weather outside is rubbish so Football Manager indoors it is. Come March i normally dust down the golf clubs and make use of the longer days and better weather. FM 24 was basically an update with the promise of 25, with the new engine, changing the whole landscape. That announcement was in Sept/Oct time 2023 if im right?? Huge blunder by SI. Embarrassing and frustrated an understatement. If they had genuine competition, they would be f**ked.   

[oche balboa]

CM97/98 - CM3 (Release date was put back from November/December 1998 to March 1999)

CM01/02 - CM4 (Release date was for November/December 2002, Put back to March 2003 which was bug ridden)

SI have a history of massively delayed games when they make major changes to the game in any form. Ironically FM2005 (After the split from Eidos)  was released in October/November 2004. 

[jmlima]

2 minutes ago, irish kopite said:

At this point, I think if I was a SEGA executive, I'd be seeking the resignation of Miles unfortunately and recalibrating  the entire SI operation to focus all efforts on the next 11 months and the release of a top class product in FM26.

 

It would hardly be believable that SI can set release dates without Sega agreeing to them. Sega will have their entire business plan based on their subsidiaries release slots, times, etc.

[waldywaldy]

lol

March?

They were not even close

[Dbuk1]

I'm delighted with this announcement. The best thing for all sides. Least now we can stop predicting how crap it was going to be and have hope for better.

 

P.s any chance of international football now??

Edited Thursday at 15:05 by Dbuk1

[rdbayly]

[zakbrown96]

Can we please stop calling for employees to lose jobs, it’s unacceptable none of us would like people saying that about us. 

[Icy]

I'm really disappointed and almost speechless as I still had faith despite all the signals, didn't see this coming. But thinking about it, better this than a bad product that would disappoint all us even more to a point of no return after the. huge expectations. It takes courage to to this and the official communication tone is not full of ego like it lately sounded sometimes but really humble and showing how hurt they really are.

I won't be harsh because I own a company in the development ecosystem as well and I know how it works. This must has been a huge hit for all the people in the company and I bet most of the SI employees are nos just employees but also huge FM fans that hurts them even more. Of course we all will agree that the whole process has been a mess, specially announcing the roadmap in the middle of the critics and rumours... to end confirming these rumours 2 weeks later dropping today's bomb. somebody is really ashamed today I'm sure.

Also for a company that bases it all in a yearly release to delay a game that much is going to hurt economically as well. In March we will be really close to the end of the biggest leagues so the timing is very bad. As some have already pointed out it would be probably a better decision product wise to just cancel FM25 and release FM26 maybe in September to go more with the releases of other football games when the season starts and the football hype is at maximum but probably they can't afford a full year without income and probably Sega is also putting a lot of pressure. Time for their strategy team to start planning what to do in 2025. Maybe to release FM25 and offer a 50% discount in FM26 for these buying both as they will be to close to each other or maybe it's the time to move to a subscription model when we buy the game in 2025 and then pay for DLCs every year with the new season db and features, Paradox style.

I really hope SI can recover from this hit for their own jobs but being egoistic also for us fans, that have no other game like FM and that in my case I started playing when I was 21... 28 years ago and can't imagine not having it every year. Anyway I'm just thinking out loud as entrepreneur myself, right now I'm more thinking about the business side of it and how I would deal with it than even playing FM25 myself. Professional deformation I guess, can't avoid it.

Now I'll just download the updated database and will start a new save in FM24 as I was retaining myself as it was just going to be a short save with fm25 being so close, not the case anymore, sad day.

[renato.]

27 minutes ago, KeegBCFC said:

There won't be an update for FM24 as they stop working on the game totally in March every year to focus on the next edition. Now we get the game in March, so what does that mean for the future? Cos if they are expecting people to pay full price at the end of the football season, to then try and release another edition in November, they are crazy.

By converting now, FM in Brazil worth more or less 1/4 the minimum salary here. Imagine spending 2x of the minimum salary in Football Manager over an year.

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

When does the development cycle for FM26 start? 

[DavutOzkan]

Wow, I honestly thought it was a joke when I first saw it in this thread. Wow, that is really shocking. This game was very obviously a mess and this is just confirmation of that. 

I think this would have just been canceled altogether if they weren't contractually obligated to release a game for the 24/25 season. Of course, we all know that releasing a football game in March is ridiculous. Don't hold your breath for a database update for FM24 though, even though I would very much like that (I need updated ratings at this point for me to actually get deep into a save rn), and it would also be the right move, but it will never happen.  

I do feel for the devs who are probably crunching like crazy and for the PR team at this company. For some others, I don't feel nearly as much. 

[gunner86]

18 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Because reeeeee basically.

You're right, the playtime aspect doesn't really hold water as most people will almost certainly get more pure hours on it as most games, whether you're getting 6 months out of it or 12.  The "buying 2 in 6 months" doesn't really either, if you're buying both 25 and 26, it doesn't really matter financially if you buy 25 in November or March.

Not to mention the fact they’ve got an extra 5 months of playtime on 24 free of charge 

[Koetzer]

I may have missed it, but will there be an official 24/25 DB update for FM24 then? 

[StevehFC]

Anyone got a good database with the recent transfer updates for FM24?