FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[diLLa88]

3 minutes ago, cirusguti said:

Financial for Sports Interactive LTD are public. Just go to Companies House.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02950954

They don't look great. At the same time, they have SEGA behind them so resources should be available to inject the capital needed to stay afloat. Would be crazy not to inject the capital considering the value of FM brand. Companies happen to undergo longer cycle of investments every now and then. You don't need to have returns every year to justify a long term investment. 

 

Considering they only make a profit of about 1-1.5 million on 60 million revenue is not great in itself, especially for a software company.

[busngabb]

8 minutes ago, ds_61_1 said:

I don't think they will. I think they'll probably go dark for the forseeable. At least until Jan. Rightly or wrongly I think it is going to be heads down and ignore the masses.

I think they will have to clear a few things up. I'd expect some kind of blog post or video clarifying the situation.

[mackem10]

3 minutes ago, diLLa88 said:

 

Considering they only make a profit of about 1-1.5 million on 60 million revenue is not great in itself, especially for a software company.

I think it's difficult to garner a great deal from them without being an accountant to be fair, or at least it is for me. Especially given they showed a loss of nearly 1m in 22.

[Micho21]

I can emphasise with the situation, especially with the employees, who should have been under a lot of pressure to reach an impossible deadline. And it shouldn't be easy to take that decision too. Thinking it in cold, it's probably better to wait a few months and have a better product, even if we feel f...ed now.

Now, as much as some want to blame the players because any action of Sigames, there are two aspects that have been handled very poorly and cannot be defended:

- It's not right to start a pre-order sale and then say a few days later that the game is going to be delayed. Maybe a week ago, they thought it was still possible to release it in November? It doesn't seem very realistic. It is undoubtely dishonest to put a game on sale with a release date knowing that you're not going to meet it. And I don't accept the excuse that "well, games are delayed". Yes, they are, but we had more than 20 years with a pre-established schedule and an immovable release date. Of course, this is a tough year and a deep change for Football Manager, and issues can happen (as they did). And if they happen, the most honest think is to communicate it at the right time and redo the schedule BEFORE trying to make money. If they really wanted to engage people, they could expose the situation, redo the schedule and open the preorder with the new realistic released date. And, surely, a lot of people will respond.

- The communication strategy has been pretty poor and shows a lack of trust in a community which could has its flaws, but loyalty is not one of them. I think a more honest and transparent policy will be far more successful: perhaps if they shared more of the issues they faced, we would feel more connected to them and emphasise easily with the  situation. Surely, a few selfish as...le wouldn't care either way, but I think there would be a lot of support and, most importantly, no one could complain about their lack of honesty.

Honestly, the delay pisses me of as much as anyone else. But I can understand the delay and the reasons behind it. Even I'm dissapointed now, I'll be there on February (fingers crossed) playing the Beta, and apart for game-breaking bugs (fingers crossed again), I'll enjoy as always, because FM has gave more than it took.

But I just can't accept they have been hidden the problem for taking the money and run. I haven't pre-ordered and I'm not affected, but they have acted dishonestly and it should be said.

Edited Friday at 09:20 by Micho21

[CamAshworth]

A wise man once said "Never assume it makes a ass out of u and me" 

I am of the opinion they should shelve 25 and concentrate on getting FM26 spot on.

Not sure on the financial and sponsorship implications should that decision made however.

[SuperMeppen]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

Please don't make assumptions like this unless you have access to their financial records.

Indeed - you can look at their filed accounts (latest is to March 2023) and SI is not some mega-company with untold riches - the net profit in those accounts was just £171,000. I suspect that's because Sega gets most of the money which doesn't go through SI so it isn't visible to us.

Not releasing anything would be a disaster for them if Sega didn't want to shoulder the cost.

[vishers]

Realistically I don't think they can simply shelve FM25 as financially this probably has huge implications and I also don't think they should spend time on an FM24 update when clearly all resources are needed for the new game

Apologies if this has been mentioned before (I haven't read all 79 pages!) but I think releasing FM25 as a kind of beta for the FM26 game might work. They could charge maybe £10 for it and then give the community a good 5-6 months to really iron out bugs etc before releasing FM26 - which you would get the £10 off the full price if you participated in the beta programme. If marketed properly, it could fix some of the burnt bridges between consumer and SI and give the consumer a feeling they are contributing towards what hopefully would be a very polished FM26

[jmlima]

29 minutes ago, cirusguti said:

Financial for Sports Interactive LTD are public. Just go to Companies House.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02950954

They don't look great. At the same time, they have SEGA behind them so resources should be available to inject the capital needed to stay afloat. Would be crazy not to inject the capital considering the value of FM brand. Companies happen to undergo longer cycle of investments every now and then. You don't need to have returns every year to justify a long term investment. 

Sort off. In abstract, injecting money into a failing subsidiary could be seen by shareholders of Sega Sammy in quite an adverse way. That would have implications on share price, and so on and so forth.

It's not as simple as, just chuck money to keep them afloat. There's a reason why corporations let subsidiaries fail and close them. It's all down to shareholders perception and long term prospects for stock prices.

Edited Friday at 09:37 by jmlima

[Dbuk1]

For all the financial being posted FM is not going under. In a bad case situation yes people could lose jobs of course. But based on the money generated by the company they would trim the fat....e.g no free lunches and alot cheaper toilet roll

[DP]

Just now, Dbuk1 said:

For all the financial being posted FM is not going under. In a bad case situation yes people could lose jobs of course. But based on the money generated by the company they would trim the fat....e.g no free lunches and alot cheaper toilet roll

And no international management. 

[armbi]

1 hour ago, Kcinnay said:

The ethical scandal of opening preorders while knowing for sure the game wouldn't be ready even close to the already delayed release date, is the worst thing of all, I guess. It'll alienate the community from the company - because getting trust back is difficult

Naah it will not, again - they have monopoly on the market so the majority of the community will forgive like a loving wife forgives her alcoholic husband, because she is convinced that there will be no one better 😉

[LeSoleil]

I'm stunned... who could have imaginated that the introduction of a new engine alongside the introduction of women's football (which no one asked for), all in the same edition, could cause the usual launch dates to be missed??

Sarcasm aside, I hope they are honest and find a solution for these 5-6 months of waiting. It can't be other than a patch with an updated DB and start in summer 2024.

Edited Friday at 09:38 by LeSoleil

[-Jef-]

28 minutes ago, LeSoleil said:

 the introduction of women's football (which no one asked for),

I asked for it once it was introduced in FIFA game series. Stop being misogynistic.

Edited Friday at 10:05 by -Jef-

[jeru]

32 minutes ago, Dbuk1 said:

For all the financial being posted FM is not going under. In a bad case situation yes people could lose jobs of course. But based on the money generated by the company they would trim the fat....e.g no free lunches and alot cheaper toilet roll

Miles is already cancelling SI’s pancake day 

[eenie]

My takeaways from the accounts:

* Sales of FM brought in £31.75m for the year to 31 March 2023
* Other revenue was £34.9m (but this looks like it's money in/out to/from Sports Interactive VGDC which is a subsidiary - effectively it's balance-sheet neutral)
* Staff costs for the same period were £16.7m
* Profit to 31 March 2023 was £0.17m
* They had net assets of £14.4m at 31 March 2023, £14m of which was money owed to them by the rest of the group - they had £200k cash on hand.

So based on the above, assuming that things are materially the same for the year to 31 March 2024, and bearing in mind that I'm assuming that the majority (but not all) of the revenue from sales of FM occur in the second half of the financial year - I think they'd be financially okay with a March release date, but it would give them a real hit. Taking the bulk of those sales figures out would wipe out their net assets, which would involve calling in the debts owed to them by the group. Any further losses would put them in the red unless SEGA bailed them out.

Now I'm not an accountant but I have picked my way through more than my fair share of accounts over the years as part of my job. Happy to be corrected on any or all of the above as I know we have a few accountant types on here

[LeSoleil]

hace 32 minutos, -Jef- dijo:

I asked for it once it was introduced in FIFA game series. Stop being misogynistic.

It's not a question of misogyny. It is a question of reality. There are a thousand things that people have asked for years, but have not been implemented. The inclusion of women's football was not a priority for the vast majority of users, but they include it for some type of agenda, and finally it is one of the reasons that causes the current situation.

Edited Friday at 10:36 by LeSoleil

[soablacksmith]

Apart from all disappointment of a late release;

I hope SIgames decides to change their way of approach to fans and transparency. Among all negativity there is a chance for them to show their enthusiasm during this development period. This would be the best "Sorry" which I would gladly accept.

There are hundreds of people from all over the world lurking in this forums who have different backgrounds. Imagine yourself,  your everyday job or your hobby. Imagine yourself working on something which you really care about. You would probably want to share your excitement with your family, close friends or anyone you care. You probably won't be happy to stay silent or not to be recognized about that thing you are very excited about. 

At the moment (and for past couple years) SIgames is not sharing that excitement with us fans. I do not accept "soulless" blogs and piece of social media information as same as sharing / creating a stories, insider vlogs of development process, some livestreams to reach community and show your work even it's not in final state.

This is one of the biggest evolution of Football Manager series and come on SIgames just lack the passion or they lack the ability to show it to us.

It's time to wake up and try to make upcoming 5-6 months better than the previous period. (Touchline Shout ---> FIRE UP!! (oops I nearly forgot, they removed this from game. - jk.)

[GIMN]

3 hours ago, jmlima said:

Tell you an anecdote of my own. We had a title ready for playesting. First playtester noted that, due to the fact that one (1) of the values in the entire database of thousands and thousands of numbers was set to realistic and accurate values, he could use a certain very core element in a totally gamey way and that would demolish the entire gameplay. First thought was, just change the value. You can see where this is going. Suddenly things left and right were becoming out of sync. Took us weeks to get the entire db balanced again and prevent that sole (but very fundamental) gamey tactic of being exploited.

TL;DR: Sometimes really unexpected crap happens at the last minute. Not saying it is the case, but been there, so can see how it can happen.

To expand on this, albeit from a non-game dev perspective.  Had a multi-year project delayed for 3 months just 2 weeks out from target release.  It didn't need an additional 3 months.  In fact, it was completed only 2 weeks after the original target.  There were other forces that impacted the release date.  Most importantly Christmas.  It was a massive, customer-facing change, and if we couldn't release by mid-November and give customers time to get used to the changes before the Christmas period (and for the returns period thereafter), then our next window was February.  Subsequently a 2 week delay appears as a 3 month delay.

Now I don't know the forces at play for SI. Nor the state of the game right now.  But I imagine that releasing in January or February is problematic.  The transfer window renders the entire database completely out of date immediately.  And we know from previous titles that getting those transfer updates finalised usually takes them into March.  Now, if I was in charge, I'd be delaying until then.  Probably have a longer period for Early Access (where an out-of-date database is more "acceptable).

Edit: Of course, if that was my plan, I wouldn't publicise it.  If I've already had a situation where an unexpected issue caused a delay, I'd be very wary about appearing to promise something, when there is always the chance of another unexpected issue cropping up.

Edited Friday at 10:54 by GIMN

[-Jef-]

18 minutes ago, LeSoleil said:

It's not a question of misogyny. It is a question of reality. There are a thousand things that people have asked for years, but have not been implemented. The inclusion of women's football was not a priority for the vast majority of users, but they include it for some type of agenda, and finally it is one of the reasons that causes the current situation.

Let's say they wanted to implement Stadium creator. Would you, or any of the other commenters, say that "noone asked for stadiums, it's one of the main culprits of the failed release of FM25" "who asked for this" "get this s... out of my game" "noone plays on THESE types of stadiums they want us to create"

 

Or if they went and added sims-like features or club ownership into the game. Would you say the same? Truly, actually ask yourselves that. My guess is - no.

 

What you, and many many others do not realise and what Miles announced back in 2021 when they said they will introduce women is following.

 

They are not just plastering women's database into what was only men's game, designed and catered to male audience, teams and players.

They are re-doing big parts of the match engine (not only graphically). They are changing how different attributes correlate to ME and to each other. This was highlighted all the way back in 2021.

 

"To get our women’s database right we will have to examine every single in-game attribute and define exactly how we judge the data; attributes such as pace, acceleration and agility will likely stay with the same range, but some attributes may need a different scale. These attributes also feed into our match engine of course, and work done in this area (for example, looking at height of players and how that may affect how they play – such as aiming shots higher if a goalkeeper is smaller) will be of benefit for the match engine overall."

So, stop being misogynistic and open up your mind a little, it doesn't hurt I promise you.

 

edit - also, moving to Unity is a much much MUCH bigger reason to the delay as they've had to re-write all parts of the game. It doesn't just mean asking CHATGPT to translate from whatever code languages they used to Unity. 

Edited Friday at 10:55 by -Jef-

[thomas_e]

38 minutes ago, eenie said:

My takeaways from the accounts:

* Sales of FM brought in £31.75m for the year to 31 March 2023
* Other revenue was £34.9m (but this looks like it's money in/out to/from Sports Interactive VGDC which is a subsidiary - effectively it's balance-sheet neutral)
* Staff costs for the same period were £16.7m
* Profit to 31 March 2023 was £0.17m
* They had net assets of £14.4m at 31 March 2023, £14m of which was money owed to them by the rest of the group - they had £200k cash on hand.

So based on the above, assuming that things are materially the same for the year to 31 March 2024, and bearing in mind that I'm assuming that the majority (but not all) of the revenue from sales of FM occur in the second half of the financial year - I think they'd be financially okay with a March release date, but it would give them a real hit. Taking the bulk of those sales figures out would wipe out their net assets, which would involve calling in the debts owed to them by the group. Any further losses would put them in the red unless SEGA bailed them out.

Now I'm not an accountant but I have picked my way through more than my fair share of accounts over the years as part of my job. Happy to be corrected on any or all of the above as I know we have a few accountant types on here

I agree, they should be okay. The problem can/will occur if sales are really down due to a march release. I will still buy it, I dont think 8 months is a short period, but you would expect sales to be down compared to a release this year. 

If they end up dropping FM25 all together (which is very unlikely) and they go straigt to FM26, I really hope that they start with a release in the first week of September. 

 

[Dr Naysay]

45 minutes ago, eenie said:

My takeaways from the accounts:

* Sales of FM brought in £31.75m for the year to 31 March 2023
* Other revenue was £34.9m (but this looks like it's money in/out to/from Sports Interactive VGDC which is a subsidiary - effectively it's balance-sheet neutral)
* Staff costs for the same period were £16.7m
* Profit to 31 March 2023 was £0.17m
* They had net assets of £14.4m at 31 March 2023, £14m of which was money owed to them by the rest of the group - they had £200k cash on hand.

So based on the above, assuming that things are materially the same for the year to 31 March 2024, and bearing in mind that I'm assuming that the majority (but not all) of the revenue from sales of FM occur in the second half of the financial year - I think they'd be financially okay with a March release date, but it would give them a real hit. Taking the bulk of those sales figures out would wipe out their net assets, which would involve calling in the debts owed to them by the group. Any further losses would put them in the red unless SEGA bailed them out.

Now I'm not an accountant but I have picked my way through more than my fair share of accounts over the years as part of my job. Happy to be corrected on any or all of the above as I know we have a few accountant types on here

Looking at the previous numbers the thing that stood out for me was that the staff costs have doubled from the time previous to the Unity announcement. This is obviously to recruit and contract an extra team for the move over. I'll wager the difficulties they have faced has probably increased those costs too but in the long term once the move has been successfully made the staffing costs as a percentage of the sales will drastically be reduced.

Edited Friday at 11:03 by Dr Naysay

[Nick_CB]

On the bright side, this time we won't have to wait until the March patch for the game to be playable.

[LeSoleil]

hace 4 minutos, -Jef- dijo:

Let's say they wanted to implement Stadium creator. Would you, or any of the other commenters, say that "noone asked for stadiums, it's one of the main culprits of the failed release of FM25" "who asked for this" "get this s... out of my game" "noone plays on THESE types of stadiums they want us to create"

 

If that had been requested by a tiny tiny part of the community and was also a factor -among others- that could cause a delay in the launch date, yes, we would say exactly the same.

Stop rating other people without knowing them.

[eenie]

1 minute ago, Dr Naysay said:

Looking at the previous numbers the thing that stood out for me was that the staff costs have doubled from the time previous to the Unity announcement. This is obviously to recruit and contract an extra team for the move over. I'll wager the difficulties they have faced has probably increased those costs too but in the long term once the move has been successfully made the staffing costs as a percentage of the sales will drastically be reduced.

I think it's hard to say really. But given that they're still working on the move to Unity, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that staff costs to 31 March 2025 are likely to be in line with the previous year rather than significantly reduced. I did say that I'd assumed figures for the year to 31 March 2024 wouldn't be materially different from the previous year, and that staff costs would then be broadly unchanged in the year to 31 March 2025.

All we can do is make assumptions at this point though.

[Icy]

All the SI financial analysis and speculation is fun and we have nothing better to talk about until March, but as an international holding company owner with a complex structure of subsidiaries under it, I can tell you that looking at the public financial registers of my companies you would have no clue about it's real situation as there are many ways to show what you want to whom you want, creative accounting.

SEGA is a huge corporation and SI is one of their hundreds or subsidiaries and I'm sure they play with the public information displayed so we can just speculate based on that public information.

[john1]

Absolutely horrific by SI to promote "FM25" and do trailers and roadmaps to the world and open up pre-orders and yet was nowhere being completed. Feels massively disappointed and asked for refund by CDKeys. **** poor imo.

[silentwars]

1 hour ago, -Jef- said:

I asked for it once it was introduced in FIFA game series. Stop being misogynistic.

Would you and others have requested it if you knew the chaos it would cause though? I suspect not. 

I don't think anyone's got an issue with the women's game been introduced, but they should only announce it when they have the capablity to put it into the game without causing this disruption. 

Edited Friday at 11:51 by silentwars

[davehanson]

56 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

Let's say they wanted to implement Stadium creator. Would you, or any of the other commenters, say that "noone asked for stadiums, it's one of the main culprits of the failed release of FM25" "who asked for this" "get this s... out of my game" "noone plays on THESE types of stadiums they want us to create"

 

Or if they went and added sims-like features or club ownership into the game. Would you say the same? Truly, actually ask yourselves that. My guess is - no.

 

What you, and many many others do not realise and what Miles announced back in 2021 when they said they will introduce women is following.

 

They are not just plastering women's database into what was only men's game, designed and catered to male audience, teams and players.

They are re-doing big parts of the match engine (not only graphically). They are changing how different attributes correlate to ME and to each other. This was highlighted all the way back in 2021.

 

"To get our women’s database right we will have to examine every single in-game attribute and define exactly how we judge the data; attributes such as pace, acceleration and agility will likely stay with the same range, but some attributes may need a different scale. These attributes also feed into our match engine of course, and work done in this area (for example, looking at height of players and how that may affect how they play – such as aiming shots higher if a goalkeeper is smaller) will be of benefit for the match engine overall."

So, stop being misogynistic and open up your mind a little, it doesn't hurt I promise you.

 

edit - also, moving to Unity is a much much MUCH bigger reason to the delay as they've had to re-write all parts of the game. It doesn't just mean asking CHATGPT to translate from whatever code languages they used to Unity. 

Again, they are really bad points you make. If they introduce sim-like features and a stadium creator and it caused a 4 months delay - there would be the same reaction as now. Why? Because only a very small % of people would want those things. 

And you are right - Unity will be the biggest and probably only factor here that has caused this delay, But your points don't help your argument.

[renato.]

1 hour ago, Icy said:

All the SI financial analysis and speculation is fun and we have nothing better to talk about until March, but as an international holding company owner with a complex structure of subsidiaries under it, I can tell you that looking at the public financial registers of my companies you would have no clue about it's real situation as there are many ways to show what you want to whom you want, creative accounting.

SEGA is a huge corporation and SI is one of their hundreds or subsidiaries and I'm sure they play with the public information displayed so we can just speculate based on that public information.

Agree with you 100%, but again: we are speculating with everything we can have because SI, regarding all about FM25, gave us absolutely nothing useful. And if they didn't had nothing useful to give, why they weren't clear and transparent since day one? Why they opened pre-orders? Why they keeps the same horrible marketing strategy? 

[trevjim]

Retro database it is. with Retro regens so real players come through at the times they first appeared.

 

Torn between 01/02 and 07/08

[Gary_Parker]

So they've either released a roadmap and November date with the knowledge that it was a slim chance to meet the release date which has blown up on them, or they've now discovered a significant bug that is fundamental to the core game engine or longevity of the game and its going to take some considerable time to resolve which has caused this massive push. I'm hoping its the latter. 

[madeirabhoy]

4 hours ago, davehanson said:

Sorry. Don't get it at all.

The game is 'out of date' the moment you press the continue button. It stops being reality and the FM world takes over. 

We have no idea what 'state' the game will be in upon release - it may be fantastic straight out of the box. FM24 wasn't bad to be fair - I still play my very first save I have on it. 

As I said I fully get the disappointment , and I am going to give my own thoughts in a minute, but I don't get the whole 'pointless buying FM25' thing. It is 8 months. March to November is 8 months. There is no barely. 

Everyone’s got genuine opinions and I get that you don’t see it as out of date but for me once we are on the next season it’s out of date. And I’m going to guess for a lot of people it is.  

[The Bus]

Good speculation about the finances and we must consider they have had FM25 under work for some time already before FM24 was out as they stated so. Now they go out and publish Premier League licensing, spend the summer misleading the customers about upcoming game and the horrible status of it by focusing on that eSports event conveniently scheduled to avoid talking about the upcoming game. FM24 was half assed and they took until last possible stage to do this... And now I don't find anywhere any comments from representatives of the company. Might be wrong, but seems so. They have had a monopoly and are in full selfdestruction mode. Not that weird in any sort of competitive scenario, that the focus is lost and irrelevant stuff is being made important to take away from the fundamentals that created the success previously achieved. Applies to sports and businesses quite well. 

I just hope they would care at all about the customers now and communicate just about anything. What was done can't be undone, but better not keep doing the same mistakes any further as this will surely be a massive financial hit for the company. "We are working very hard and don't have the time to communicate!" is not the solution.

[Nickg07]

The biggest problem financially is cash flow.

 

Main cost is staff, they will need to be paid for the next 5 months,  but at the same time they will have significantly lower income as they don't have a relevant product to sell.

 

That's the problem when you have effectively 1 product to sell that relies on an annual cycle and you miss it so badly.

 

 

[podunkboy]

2 hours ago, -Jef- said:

I asked for it once it was introduced in FIFA game series. Stop being misogynistic.

I didn't ask for it, but I'm still going to try managing a women's team - raised two daughters, think I know how to handle hormonal players wanting more playing time (we only had one desktop computer). 

[The Bus]

1 minute ago, Nickg07 said:

The biggest problem financially is cash flow.

 

Main cost is staff, they will need to be paid for the next 5 months,  but at the same time they will have significantly lower income as they don't have a relevant product to sell.

 

That's the problem when you have effectively 1 product to sell that relies on an annual cycle and you miss it so badly.

 

 

And then we get to go to customer service too. They will mess up FM25 and probably end up and in the fall of 25 release a lackluster FM26 or keep on pushing the release date to way too late dates in comparison to the football season, which is very relevant to the hype and sales... 

[BJG123]

3 hours ago, mackem10 said:

I think it's difficult to garner a great deal from them without being an accountant to be fair, or at least it is for me. Especially given they showed a loss of nearly 1m in 22.

If I'm being cynical, I'd say taking pre-sales knowing full well the game wasn't ready and would inevitably be delayed is an indicator they need cash-flow.

 

Surprised to see so many people letting them off the hook here.  FM has no competition and a loyal fan base, they've told us they've been working on this new platform which will allow for a groundbreaking experience since 2020, and we've all loyally bought 23 and 24 games that were barely any different from 22 and supported them. 

 

They've absolutely mugged us off here. Spaffed a bunch of cash building a feature that almost nobody was asking for, royally stuffed up developing on the new platform, taken pre-sales then almost immediately delayed the game by 5 months...

A fish rots from the head down 

[the_hdk]

2 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

On the bright side, this time we won't have to wait until the March patch for the game to be playable.

you are assuming this mess will actually be playable

 

I really hope they will pull a miracle...but it seems Unity was their biggest mistake in history of the company.

Personally I also applaud the delay. getting out an unplayable game in few weeks could potentially end them.

[diLLa88]

2 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

On the bright side, this time we won't have to wait until the March patch for the game to be playable.

Yeah, now we will have to wait until October/November.

Oh right, that's when FM26 probably will release, so then we have a playable version again by March 2026.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, silentwars said:

Would you and others have requested it if you knew the chaos it would cause though? I suspect not. 

I don't think anyone's got an issue with the women's game been introduced, but they should only announce it when they have the capablity to put it into the game without causing this disruption. 

Yeah, no way there was any other reason why the release got delayed.  Not at all.  Must've been all down to those pesky wummin.

[davehanson]

43 minutes ago, madeirabhoy said:

Everyone’s got genuine opinions and I get that you don’t see it as out of date but for me once we are on the next season it’s out of date. And I’m going to guess for a lot of people it is.  

Yeah, I understand it to a degree - but as I said once you hit that continue button for the first time 'real life' comes irrelevant. And surely people that care about it being as up to date as possible will just do what they do now - download unofficial updates anyway?

I can only be honest and just say it strikes me as people throwing their toys out of the pram because they want the game now, SI owe them something etc etc. The reality is SI have messed up with just how big a job coding onto the Unity engine would be. There is no quick fix for this so they were damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

[Zoolok42]

27 minutes ago, podunkboy said:

I didn't ask for it, but I'm still going to try managing a women's team - raised two daughters, think I know how to handle hormonal players wanting more playing time (we only had one desktop computer). 

Hormonal players? What, all women are "hormonal"? Or what are you trying to say, since you seem to be defending the decision to include "hormonal players" into the game.

People are pissed at women's football not because it's woman's football, but because it was crammed together with another major change to the game, and the feeling is that situation would have been better if these two big changes were done one at a time, at whatever order. Some people are genuinely misogynistic, but the other side also has to get off its high horse and stop accusing people and insinuating things. Especially if you will defend the decisions by stating you know how to handle "hormonal players". I hope that's not how you label your daughters.

[silentwars]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

Yeah, no way there was any other reason why the release got delayed.  Not at all.  Must've been all down to those pesky wummin.

I'd imagine it's a combination of the graphics and introducing the women's game. I think the majority of the players would like the graphics to be priortised and then work on adding the women's game if the audience is there for it. To do both at once was unnecessary and has backfired massively.

[gunner86]

1 minute ago, Zoolok42 said:

 

People are pissed at women's football not because it's woman's football, but because it was crammed together with another major change to the game, and the feeling is that situation would have been better if these two big changes were done one at a time, at whatever order. 

The bit in bold is not entirely true. A lot of people have been whining about Women’s football being added since it was announced, long before any of this kicked off.

The bit in Italics I do generally agree with, however I can kind of see the logic in not launching women’s football in the old engine, only to have to migrate it to Unity creating double work. Could they have run unity for a year and then introduced Women’s football? Probably.

I don’t think we’ll ever get a post mortem on what exactly has gone wrong, and to what extent what changes have caused what percentage of those issues.

[DP]

So, no ‘introduction to women’s football’ today then and the roadmap has been officially scrapped?

Edited Friday at 13:36 by DP

[Zoolok42]

2 minutes ago, DP said:

So, no ‘introduction to women’s football’ today then and the roadmap has been officially scrapped?

I think we are in the "and much more" part of the map

[Zoolok42]

3 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

The bit in bold is not entirely true. A lot of people have been whining about Women’s football being added since it was announced, long before any of this kicked off.

The bit in Italics I do generally agree with, however I can kind of see the logic in not launching women’s football in the old engine, only to have to migrate it to Unity creating double work. Could they have run unity for a year and then introduced Women’s football? Probably.

I don’t think we’ll ever get a post mortem on what exactly has gone wrong, and to what extent what changes have caused what percentage of those issues.

Whoever has an issue with women's football in the game is obviously deranged, no other way to put it. People that complain that both should not have been done at the same time may have a point, but we will never know I guess. But people accusing everyone of being misogynistic are also annoying.

Anyway, in words of legend Ron Swanson, never half-ass two things, always whole-ass one thing.

[forameuss]

8 minutes ago, silentwars said:

I'd imagine it's a combination of the graphics and introducing the women's game. I think the majority of the players would like the graphics to be priortised and then work on adding the women's game if the audience is there for it. To do both at once was unnecessary and has backfired massively.

Pretty much every communication they've made has pointed to Unity as being an incredibly complex task and the reason for most of their woes.  Yet you went straight after women's football.  If they'd solely focused on moving to Unity this edition, we'd still be looking at a delay to release going by the only thing we have a window into.  

[ds_61_1]

There seems to be a heavy push from some posters in this thread to label any criticism aimed at the game as being due to a perceived backlash against women's football being included. This is very disingenuous, and it is starting to come off as trying to bait people into arguments.

Edited Friday at 16:17 by ds_61_1
spelling.

[silentwars]

4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Pretty much every communication they've made has pointed to Unity as being an incredibly complex task and the reason for most of their woes.  Yet you went straight after women's football.  If they'd solely focused on moving to Unity this edition, we'd still be looking at a delay to release going by the only thing we have a window into.  

Sorry, but you clearly haven't read all my posts

16 hours ago, silentwars said:

point 1) Surely you only announce a graphics overhaul when you're advanced enough with it to know it will be ready for the next installment - they've obviously underestimated how long it was going to take and doing it the same year as introducing the women's leagues was a recipe for disaster.

I've clearly mentioned both being an issue.