Semi Final 2: Netherlands vs England live from the BVB Stadion Dortmund. Wednesday ITV1 8pm

[Redshift]

I still don't get why Koeman made 2 subs after we scored that goal

[hairwad]

Ollie’s goal to the eye looks like a classic tournament goal scored by another country.

[Haguey]

1 minute ago, Redshift said:

I still don't get why Koeman made 2 subs after we scored that goal

I guess given there was only two minutes left so had to go all out attack with subs which took about a minute off

Can't think of many games where the winner has gone in just as they've announced barely any added time, weird finish, but not complaining!

[skybluedave]

1 minute ago, Redshift said:

I still don't get why Koeman made 2 subs after we scored that goal

I was quite looking forward to that. We chucked on bunch of defenders. They chucked on a bunch of strikers. Thought we were gonna get some mad pump it long pinball action. But instead they didn't even get near our box 

[Astafjevs]

What else was he going to do? His team only had 2 mins (which were all played btw, Holland weren't robbed of any time). He had to send on every forward, and get them charging up field in a line chasing the long ball. Like the start of a rugby match.

[GunmaN1905]

The plot thickens!

[Robson 07]

We played well all game but particularly 1st half when Foden, Saka and Mainoo were sensational.  Clinical finish from Ollie.

Pleased for Southgate, he just seems to be a genuine nice guy. He may not be a tactical genius but he creates a good camp and the results have been tremendous tbf.  Who came before, Capello and Allardyce?  Christ, it is a millions mile from that sh*te to be fair.   Feeling proud. 

[Pukey]

5 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

The plot thickens!

That very clearly needs another angle, absolutely impossible to say for definite it hit his hand from that angle.

[titchuk]

Some of you guys need to get on the knight Gareth train quickly, we won't be accepting latecomers 

[Bootador]

Different phase of play.

Or something like that

[m_fenton]

13 minutes ago, Pukey said:

That very clearly needs another angle, absolutely impossible to say for definite it hit his hand from that angle.

And would need to show that the handball was either deliberate or hands in an unnatural position. He doesn't score or assist, so it's not one where any touch would automatically be handball.

 

Edit: Longer clip, clearly a natural arm movement and so not handball: 

 

Edited July 10 by m_fenton

[skybluedave]

6 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

We played well all game but particularly 1st half when Foden, Saka and Mainoo were sensational.  Clinical finish from Ollie.

Yeah, lost in all this euphoria but Mainoo was sensational I thought. He's the real deal ain't he. What a talent

[Robson 07]

10 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

The plot thickens!

What are England supposed to do?  Ref, ref it wasn't a foul and actually Saka said it brushed his hand.

No, the officials officiate.  We stick away the penalty.  End of.  Twitter can do one.

{er please note, this is trademark non-quotable if Man Utd are ever robbed by VAR}

[enigmatic]

25 minutes ago, hairwad said:

Ollie’s goal to the eye looks like a classic tournament goal scored by another country.

The hilarious thing is most people and especially most foreign people don't watch all 120 minutes of England games with a view to worrying they haven't created enough chances yet or how they play out the back, so in future years (especially if we win) they're just going to look at that goal and the Saka goal and the Bellingham overhead kick and think "didn't exactly take the average sides apart but what a clutch tournament team" rather than ranting about xG and the amount of times the ball went backwards

 

2 minutes ago, Pukey said:

That very clearly needs another angle, absolutely impossible to say for definite it hit his hand from that angle.

Time for snickometer!

If we're relitigating the game I think Simons gets a free kick against him 7 or 8 times out of 10 before scoring his worldie, so I'm not even going to pretend to care that it took me a lot of replays to convince me there was the sort of foul that ever gets given in the penalty decision (and it apparently took Kane two minutes of lying down to convince VAR to have a look!). 

[XuluBak]

First, great finish by Watkins to win it. 

Second, the Netherlands got screwed, again. 

[Constantine]

Weird game, that... England started off really well, utilizing the acres of space the Dutch gave them. They actually played well, till Sir Gareth reined them in at HT. Can't be having that...

Koeman adapted better, tactically sound but he chose the wrong personnel. Lord Southgate made sound subs for once and England individual quality shone through once more. They're so, so good. Watkins' goal was class!

Ref shat the bed, no doubt about that. Laughable penalty and as the game went on, he just kept losing control of the match. Still, England deserved to win, either way.

If they can contain Yamal and Nico (Shaw has to start, Rice and Mainoo have to play flawless games), I guess it's coming home, finally.

Edited July 11 by Constantine

[Constantine]

Just read that Starmer's coming to the game. With him and Gareth, that much luck at one place, you guys might even cure cancer and bring on world peace, aside from winning it all

[Carambau]

England can thank bribe ref Zwayer for that.

[oche balboa]

Don't think i cheered for a Villa Player scoring as much in my life 

 

Some Albion fans refused to celebrate....losers 

[RTHerringbone]

12 minutes ago, Carambau said:

England can thank bribe ref Zwayer for that.

[kopsy101]

Happy for England and my wife, but it's certainly been a weird euros. I can't think of any England player that's genuinely been really good, I just think the quality behind the team and mentality of the big players has given us some brilliant clutch moments. For all the criticism of Gareth, you have to say that his pragmatic approach has been so risky but it's paid off. 

For the first time, I do expect opposition to win. Spain are good, and probably the first proper good team that they've faced so far. 

[Lucas]

15 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

Spain are good, and probably the first proper good team that they've faced so far. 

Is it just me, or whenever England play a team we beat they 'aren't good', and yet, if we lose, well, we played a proper team  

I have a feeling we will play better against Spain as the game is more open for the likes of Foden, Bellingham to have the space they need. 

[arenaross]

6 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Is it just me, or whenever England play a team we beat they 'aren't good', and yet, if we lose, well, we played a proper team  

I have a feeling we will play better against Spain as the game is more open for the likes of Foden, Bellingham to have the space they need. 

Tbf people do the inverse for everything pre-Southgate. 

"My god Sven couldn't even beat Nigeria. Golden generation? LOLden generation more like. " 

Southgate draws against Slovenia "Well there's no easy matches at this level. We are fortunate to have a managerial heavyweight to drag this team of misfits through with a goalless draw." 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[m_fenton]

12 hours ago, Ackter said:

Dumfries stuck his foot up and Kane kicked it.

Dumfries didn't dive in with a tackle or anything. It was a block.

Just to pick up on this old discussion...

Kane takes a forward step and kicks the ball. Dumfries sprints a total of about 3 yards and follows through another yard or so. He doesn't just "stick a foot up", his momentum goes right through Kane (connecting with studs, high up, and missing the ball). Compare where Dumfries starts and finishes below:

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[themadsheep2001]

9 hours ago, skybluedave said:

Yeah, lost in all this euphoria but Mainoo was sensational I thought. He's the real deal ain't he. What a talent

Genuinely should have been man of the match. Ridiculous talent

Dont think we were stellar, but we actually tried to play on the front foot at times and made positive early subs. Who knew that might pay off?

[Bigwig]

The penalty was a perfect example of how VAR is misused.

It’s meant to be there for obvious howlers that are missed (like Henry’s handball) but I don’t think anyone could honestly say that was the case last night.if the referee has to watch replays at various angles going frame-by-frame then that itself kinda indicates it’s not an obvious miss.

You then have the issue about sending the ref to the screen which is another issue itself. As soon as you do that you’re planting the seed in the referees mind that he needs to overturn the decision and he’s going to view the footage with the expectation that he’ll go with what he’s being told. It takes a brave ref to go against the expectations placed on them and stick with their original decision, so the ‘safe’ option is just to go with what the VAR team are telling him.

At least it’s refreshing to see that it’s not just our league that has these issues. In the last few seasons you’d think VAR was working fine everywhere and only the incompetent Premier League can’t get it right but that isn’t the case. 

[Rob1981]

23 minutes ago, arenaross said:

Southgate draws against Slovenia "Well there's no easy matches at this level. We are fortunate to have a managerial heavyweight to drag this team of misfits through with a goalless draw." 

Literally nobody has said this.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I'm calling a truce, no Southgate discussions until 11pm Sunday.

[arenaross]

5 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Literally nobody has said this.

You tell us all the time there are no easy games at this level.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[enigmatic]

9 minutes ago, arenaross said:

Tbf people do the inverse for everything pre-Southgate. 

"My god Sven couldn't even beat Nigeria. Golden generation? LOLden generation more like. " 

Southgate draws against Slovenia "Well there's no easy matches at this level. We are fortunate to have a managerial heavyweight to drag this team of misfits through with a goalless draw." 

Except, of course, that there absolutely wasn't some massive pressure on Sven when we drew with Nigeria and Euro 96 is actually remembered fondly decades later, whereas now that we've got a vastly superior record in the last three tournaments (despite Gareth obvs) fans need to throw stuff at the players and pundits need to call an inquest because we get a mutually useful draw against Denmark. 

 

[Barry Cartman]

It was never a penalty and those saying they're given anywhere else on the pitch are usually those complaining about them being given as a foul

Unless we want to ban blocking from the game, players putting their feet in the air is a natural thing to do, players are not fouled if their follow through ends up kicking the other players blocking foot. Kane's shot was in no way impeded, he put it miles over the bar before contact was made 

Edited July 11 by Barry Cartman

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[The_jagster]

I don't think it was a pen and I do think this is one of those incidents when a real time replay is more useful for the context of what happened than a slow mo for the contact itself.

In F1 parlance it was just a racing incident to me, and I don't like them being given as free kicks elsewhere either.

Edit: also proves how VAR is more about who is affected by it as to how much controversy it generates, oddly none of the same journalists are hyping up how controversial this was as they do in the PL

Edited July 11 by The_jagster

[Wiggins Top Boys]

can't get over Watkins' face as he steers away, proper raises a smile

[GunmaN1905]

5 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

It was never a penalty and those saying they're given anywhere else on the pitch are usually those complaining about them being given as a foul

Unless we want to ban blocking from the game, players putting their feet in the air is a natural thing to do, players are not fouled if their follow through ends up kicking the other players blocking foot. Kane's shot was in no way impeded, he put it miles over the bar before contact was made 

It's a about a recurring pattern.

Second EURO semi-final in a row where England gets every 50-50 decision.

[Barry Cartman]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

It's a about a recurring pattern.

Second EURO semi-final in a row where England gets every 50-50 decision.

I wouldn't go that far, after the pen the ref went a good 15 minutes giving England nothing, Foden was clearly fouled twice, one of which would have seen him running in on goal 

[Rob1981]

1 hour ago, arenaross said:

You tell us all the time there are no easy games at this level.

I have said this, yes.  But I have definitely never called Southgate a "managerial heavyweight"   I've always accepted there have been tactical limitations there.  But you need to offset this against all the stuff he DOES get right... the mental preparation, the club culture stuff, some of the stubborness around team selection so he can rely on people that have played a lot of games together.  If you take it all on balance, I still think he has been our best chance of actually getting over the line and winning a tournament.

But on the Slovenia game specifically... Twitter is now full of people going: "Why didn't we play that in the Group Stage?!  We could have beaten those other teams easily!"

It's obviously not that simple.  We didn't play like that against Slovenia because it's a different type of game at a different stage of the tournament.  If they avoid defeat, they know they are through to a R16 for the first time ever.  We know we win the group unless there is a goal in the other game.  A 0-0 draw in that context is really not hard to understand.  It doesn't make Southgate a walking disaster, any more than the semi final win makes him some kind of overnight tactical genius. 

I am enjoying the reassessment of him this morning btw... but if people are expecting me to gloat about it all day they are going to be disappointed. 

Last night was a lot more open because we played a better team who also thought they could win.  That's it.  And it was still another tournament game decided on tiny margins.  We pressed higher up the pitch in the first half.  Everyone got excited.  But from a more aggressive forward position we conceded two Dutch counter attacks.  The first one they scored.  The second one they won a corner and hit the bar.  Plus our penalty was soft.  So we could have played our best football of the tournament and gone in 2-0 down at half time.  Then instead of everyone remembering that Southgate is actually capable, this morning he is calling a press conference to resign.  Even though he's set the team up the same way.

Obviously I'm pleased we won and pleased that he proved a few people wrong.  But it all counts for nothing if we don't beat Spain.  Another runners-up spot won't move the needle in terms of how Southgate is judged.  He won't be the guy that reached two finals and a semi final, he will still just be the guy that couldn't do it in the very biggest games.

Every tournament people just gravitate to the two extremes of opinion based on a few odd moments... even though most games are right in the balance and the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Edited July 11 by Rob1981

[GunmaN1905]

2 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

I wouldn't go that far, after the pen the ref went a good 15 minutes giving England nothing, Foden was clearly fouled twice, one of which would have seen him running in on goal 

Rather have a pen than a couple of fouls.

As I said last night, ref completely lost the plot and we all knew he was going to lose it.

 

[Bigwig]

The penalty was around the 20min mark so while it’s obviously a big moment I don’t anyone can say it decided the match, as there was still plenty that could have happened if it wasn’t given. 

[Barry Cartman]

Anyway, should never have been a pen, because it should have been handball on Saka

 

 

[m_fenton]

It's clearly not handball either ffs. People just desperate not to give England any credit.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Anyway, should never have been a pen, because it should have been handball on Saka

 

 

It's in the build up so it's fine? Not that I have a clue what the handball rule is anymore.

[Pukey]

12 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

It was never a penalty and those saying they're given anywhere else on the pitch are usually those complaining about them being given as a foul

Unless we want to ban blocking from the game, players putting their feet in the air is a natural thing to do, players are not fouled if their follow through ends up kicking the other players blocking foot. Kane's shot was in no way impeded, he put it miles over the bar before contact was made 

I don't think I've ever complained about a player being kicked getting a free kick to be honest.

It's one I don't think VAR should get involved with, but I'm sorry it's not just a block is it? His foot is raised high and he connects with Kane with his stoods. There's other ways to block that don't involve raising your stoods as high as he does. I genuinely don't understand why this is being seen as some travesty of a decision.

[Bigwig]

Some of the opinion changes are akin to that character in The Fast Show.

Mainoo tried a lofted pass which didn’t work out and he should be immediately pulled, but now he’s undroppable. Palmer has gone from should be starting over Saka, to not being at this level to being able to pick out those passes again.

As for Southgate, he could either be our best manager since Sir Alf or the biggest underachiever based on what has happened by 11pm Sunday night. Wild. 

[Pukey]

2 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

It's clearly not handball either ffs. People just desperate not to give England any credit.

I'm so confused why people keep saying it hit his hand, how on earth can you tell definitively from that angle  Unless there's another angle that shows it much clearer?

[m_fenton]

1 minute ago, Pukey said:

I'm so confused why people keep saying it hit his hand, how on earth can you tell definitively from that angle  Unless there's another angle that shows it much clearer?

I think there's an angle that looks like it does, but it's not deliberate or in an unnatural position, so its not handball.

The people arguing against the penalty only seem to be able to do so without referencing the actual rules.

Edited July 11 by m_fenton

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I was shocked and am still shocked they actually overturned the decision, but it's pretty obvious what the logic being used is. Whether you agree or not is a different matter but I think they followed the process in making the call.