Semi Final 2: Netherlands vs England live from the BVB Stadion Dortmund. Wednesday ITV1 8pm

[Barry Cartman]

2 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I'm so confused why people keep saying it hit his hand, how on earth can you tell definitively from that angle  Unless there's another angle that shows it much clearer?

It clearly hits his fingers in the 1st few moments of that clip, then questionable whether it then also hits his arm again. You can see his fingers bend back from the impact 

Edited July 11 by Barry Cartman

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

It clearly hits his fingers in the 1st few moments of that clip, then questionable whether it then also hits his arm again 

I missed that right hand bit at the start  I wouldn't give that as handball tbh.

[Pukey]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

It clearly hits his fingers in the 1st few moments of that clip, then questionable whether it then also hits his arm again 

I'm pretty sure the rule is only if the person who scores has it hit their hand does it matter unless it's deliberately, and absolutely nobody is arguing that first one is the deliberate. Then the other it's absolutely impossible to tell for sure it hits his hand. I could be wrong.

[Barry Cartman]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I missed that right hand bit at the start  I wouldn't give that as handball tbh.

It stops the momentum of the ball, not sure how you can't not give it when its moments before landing at Kanes foot 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Just now, InigoPatinkin said:

It's apparently got to be deliberate handball for it to count if it's not the person who scored, even if (as in this case here) the ball is kicked directly into the goal by another player (which seems a bit of an oversight to me). Think there probably needs to be a higher bar for deliberate than Saka's instinctual attempt to control it with his arm as it's flying away from him though. 

Still surprised there was no VAR check on it though.  

The VAR took ages so I wonder if they did check it?

[Coulthard's Jaw]

3 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

It stops the momentum of the ball

Show me it at full speed, how can you make a judgement about speed and stuff when you're looking at a super slo mo   

Edited July 11 by Coulthard's Jaw

[The_jagster]

4 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

It's apparently got to be deliberate handball for it to count if it's not the person who scored, even if (as in this case here) the ball is kicked directly into the goal by another player (which seems a bit of an oversight to me). Think there probably needs to be a higher bar for deliberate than Saka's instinctual attempt to control it with his arm as it's flying away from him though. 

Still surprised there was no VAR check on it though.  

This was changed because of the odd incident such as Son falling on the ball with his hand because he was fouled and another being played in, but this accidental handball being counted as handball in the laws.

It is an inherent problem with trying to make everything objective rather than "do we think that should rule out a goal?"

Edited July 11 by The_jagster

[Barry Cartman]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Show me it at full speed, how can you make a judge about speed and stuff when you're looking at a super slo mo   

Even at slow mo you can see the ball slow down for a few frames after contact with his fingers 

but hey, who cares, **** Koeman  

[GunmaN1905]

The actual rule is that it's not a handball if it hits another part of the body first and then hits the arm.

[The_jagster]

14 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I don't think I've ever complained about a player being kicked getting a free kick to be honest.

It's one I don't think VAR should get involved with, but I'm sorry it's not just a block is it? His foot is raised high and he connects with Kane with his stoods. There's other ways to block that don't involve raising your stoods as high as he does. I genuinely don't understand why this is being seen as some travesty of a decision.

Unkel's very quick "yeah that's not a penalty" probably reflects the instinct of most people

[Barry Cartman]

11 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Additionally, for players in the build-up other than the goal scorer themselves, the threshold is also lower than that of a defender's, but slightly different. Positioning of the arm does not matter, yet unlike that of the goal scorer themselves, the offence must be considered "deliberate" for the goal to be chalked off.

https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/football/news/handball-football-rules-changes-fifa-uefa-hand-ball-soccer/tdnqkct6nzocrbfvscrxvtzl

I think the way the interpretation is written probably didn't account for people scoring directly from another players hand ball, but it's not technically handball. 

Is Lukaku's goal that was disallowed not the exact same thing?

they even brought out the cricket meter  

[GunmaN1905]

5 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Is it a handball if the ball deflects off a player's body?
In the current reading of the rule, yes, a handball is penalised regardless of deflection off another player's or the same player's body. However, some leagues have varying interpretations of the rule, and some are more strict about this than others.

According to current Premier League guidelines which were released ahead of the 2020/21 season, a deflection is only taken into account if it makes a clear difference to the ball striking the player's hand or arm, assuming the arm is extended in an 'unnatural' position. Furthermore, should the ball deflect off a player and then onto their own arm or hand, this should not automatically be given as a penalty. This, of course, leads to plenty of debate: in the Champions League, when Tino Livramento was penalised for handball in the dying seconds against Paris Saint-Germain, some would argue it was a correct decision as his arm was raised to the side when the ball struck it (and therefore in an 'unnatural' position), while others would say it was unjust to give the penalty given the ball only hit his arm because it deflected off his knee first.

Had that of happened in the Premier League, a penalty may not have been awarded given allowances are made by officials for when the ball strikes another part of the body first, prior to it hitting the player's arm.

This isn't true. By the rules it's penalised, but it's down to the regions interpretation. 

Idk if Premier League guidelines are the ones to be followed.

I don't think I've seen a penalty given in Serie A for body to hand deflection, like ever.

Or in CL.

Up until last season every hand contact by the attacker was a handball, but this season they changed it a bit.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, InigoPatinkin said:

That's probably because of Serie A's interpretation of the laws (like the Premier League's) is more lax. But by the law it's a handball. UEFA apparently had a very strict interpretation until this year when it was relaxed, how relaxed I have no idea. 

I think that EPL's interpretations are the only ones that are different from UEFA and leagues around the world.

Anyhow, remember that Belgium goal against Slovakia and the touch sensor nonsense handball that didn't even change the ball's direction?

How come that one was disallowed and this one stood? Body to hand is the only thing that makes sense.

Overall, we had two knockout ties with inconsistent decisions.

Cucurella's handball is a penalty by every interpretation, but the ref didn't look at it due to "clear and obvious" whatever.

This one wasn't "clear and obvious" either, but the ref went to look at it.

This kind of inconsistency is really annoying.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

I don't think I've seen a penalty given in Serie A for body to hand deflection, like ever.

Or in CL.

Spurs fans right now

[Coulthard's Jaw]

[JD nawrat]

Ignore me, being discussed in the England thread. 

Edited July 11 by JD nawrat

[ham_aka_stam]

I think starting Kane against Spain makes more sense as we're going to need to keep the ball a bit more, having him doing his deep drop could be beneficial.  If there's lots of space in behind I would like to see Watkins on sooner though.

[TalkSport]

3 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

I think starting Kane against Spain makes more sense as we're going to need to keep the ball a bit more, having him doing his deep drop could be beneficial.  If there's lots of space in behind I would like to see Watkins on sooner though.

Nothing won’t change personnel wise, but player position/play wise it does.

Thinking about the way we played that game last night more this morning, it feels it was with a plan to do same against Spain, with how the players were. Bellingham was poor, but he made those runs down the inside left, and that’s the space against Spain. Spain weakness has been runs through the centre wide areas, and whilst we won’t suddenly start a Gordon, Bellingham will need to do it. 

Mainoo a bit more deeper, with Bellingham pushed on more is the two slight tweaks I would like to see. 

Think we saw last night, with Foden in that Central/Right area, helps the side a lot more with the ball going forward, then Bellingham there and Foden on the left.

[sebsy]

I've started the day by watching the game this morning as I usually go to bed at roughly 830, so wasn't hard to avoid the result.

Really good game to watch, by far our best performance, and Mainoo was brilliant. Everyone played their part but he was superb. Wonderful winner from Watkins. 

Not a bad way to start my birthday \o/

[profii]

2nd time this week England have pipped Holland at the post 

[Heartwork]

We've got very good at scoring late goals that's for sure.

[JJ72]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Genuinely should have been man of the match. Ridiculous talent

Dont think we were stellar, but we actually tried to play on the front foot at times and made positive early subs. Who knew that might pay off?

Some people need to look again at what they posted last night about him.  Some ridiculous comments about a 19 Yr old in his first season  of first team football

[Smallen]

I didn’t think it was a pen but we were much the better team and deservedly won so… i don’t care?

[Smallen]

I think people go massively overboard with praise for Mainoo and his defensive and positional ability is very, very poor, but he was good last night and grew into the game. Deserves to start on Sunday.

Edited July 11 by Smallen

[TalkSport]

He’s got the footballing maturity of someone much older, in terms of the those little bits of play to get space. 

Reminds me of Bruno G in his game, and that’s the sort of player I could see him developing into. Where he’s equally good playing the deep CM role or in an advanced CM role.

[kopsy101]

1 hour ago, Lucas said:

Is it just me, or whenever England play a team we beat they 'aren't good', and yet, if we lose, well, we played a proper team  

I have a feeling we will play better against Spain as the game is more open for the likes of Foden, Bellingham to have the space they need. 

It depends who you ask, but I haven't rated Netherlands at all, they've been so fortunate to get this far. And obviously, the previous opponents are well organised teams but all massively weaker. It's difficult to define national teams really, because we compare them to club teams which are stronger and more refined. But in terms of squad quality, I think the "good" ones are probably England, France, Portugal, Germany and Spain. 

Yeah that's true, Rodri will have to be on top form, which he usually is. It's possibly the first team who also have genuinely good attackers, so I think both teams will be wary to commit. Either way, I'm looking forward to it - Hoping for a good game of football where we get to see the quality from both squads. 

 

[Yuko]

59 minutes ago, Smallen said:

I didn’t think it was a pen but we were much the better team and deservedly won so… i don’t care?

That's not how it works but suit yourself.

[BigV]

He's getting massively praised because he's 19 and went from u18's to playing blinders against mens football at the ELITE level... if that doesn't deserve over the top praise then I dont know what does. 

Also it was quite clear he was not a 6 or someone who sat alongside rice yesterday, he was so high up in the press, he was a 10 who dropped deep when needed and it was only towards the end he got deeper before being replaced by gallagher, and what does he do? press, so again high up. Yes he has defensive frailties and he's probably an 8 but he can do anything centrally to a good level where and when needed. 

[kopsy101]

51 minutes ago, Smallen said:

I think people go massively overboard with praise for Mainoo and his defensive and positional ability is very, very poor, but he was good last night and grew into the game. Deserves to start on Sunday.

He's so easy on the eye, so it's easy to do that. He was decent though, some good moments some poor. For me, he improved last night because he was more progressive in his play, which inevitably leads to errors occasionally. 

I'd start him, what's the alternative though? Trent, who will create more chances while sitting deep, but isn't as comfortable taking the ball centrally, or Gallagher who is really the Kyle Walker of centre midfield. 

[Rob1981]

8 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

It depends who you ask, but I haven't rated Netherlands at all, they've been so fortunate to get this far.

May be relevant before we pile in and say it is "only" Netherlands, or it is "Netherlands' worst ever side" or whatever.

It also means the made up stats about Gareth never beating top 10 teams have taken another hit... even though they have been thoroughly debunked already.

[GunmaN1905]

Francois Letexier will be in charge of the final.

Reffed Croatia-Albania, Serbia-Denmark and Spain-Georgia.

Biggest game he reffed this season was Real-City at Bernabeu.

[kopsy101]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

May be relevant before we pile in and say it is "only" Netherlands, or it is "Netherlands' worst ever side" or whatever.

It also means the made up stats about Gareth never beating top 10 teams have taken another hit... even though they have been thoroughly debunked already.

Yeah I'm just basing it off watching them play, not from rankings. It probably would have been an annihilation had Netherlands not changed it up after 30 odd minutes.  

[WillHoward42]

4 hours ago, kopsy101 said:

I can't think of any England player that's genuinely been really good

Guehi, Mainoo and Saka would like a word please

[hairwad]

Who got booked on the bench last night for England just before full time?

[Bootador]

 

15 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

May be relevant before we pile in and say it is "only" Netherlands, or it is "Netherlands' worst ever side" or whatever.

It also means the made up stats about Gareth never beating top 10 teams have taken another hit... even though they have been thoroughly debunked already.

I think Netherlands are a "good" side - not as good as us but good enough the credit Southgate with getting the job done in what wasn't a foregone conclusion.

Spain obviously are ranked below Netherlands in the Fifa rankings, so Southgate simply has no excuses now 

[TM]

1 hour ago, Smallen said:

I didn’t think it was a pen but we were much the better team and deservedly won so… i don’t care?

I thought the game was 50-50 to be honest towards the end, if the Dutch had gone for it instead of doing what Switzerland were doing in the England game of passing it about for 5-10 minutes, they could have won it

England definitely the best in the first half, resorted to type in the 2nd but were able to pull the victory out with a great pass from Palmer to Watkins who finished it the way you'd want a striker to do so

[JJ72]

22 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

May be relevant before we pile in and say it is "only" Netherlands, or it is "Netherlands' worst ever side" or whatever.

It also means the made up stats about Gareth never beating top 10 teams have taken another hit... even though they have been thoroughly debunked already.

But I thought rankings were nonsense...or so they were for Italy 

[Rob1981]

8 minutes ago, hairwad said:

Who got booked on the bench last night for England just before full time?

Trippier

[kopsy101]

12 minutes ago, WillHoward42 said:

Guehi, Mainoo and Saka would like a word please

Saka, i thought of immediately after. I think he's sensational, even if he doesn't have the numbers to support it. He was nullifying Gakpo on his own for the most part last night, as well as attacking. An absolute dream. 

Guehi has been good considering the expectations on his, but i wouldn't have him down as having played better than Stones. He's been caught out a few times, which others would not get away with. Mainoo has been good considering his age, but looking good while passing the ball back aside while not really providing that much protection (30 mins last night excluded) isn't that progressive really - Others would get and have been slated for that. So if we're including them, may as well get Foden, Bellingham, Toney, Stones, Trent, Rice, Palmer in there too. 

[Baptista_8]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C9R7D3Bom9f/?igsh=cjRnd2VrbWw5OHE5

Love it

[WillHoward42]

6 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

Saka, i thought of immediately after. I think he's sensational, even if he doesn't have the numbers to support it. He was nullifying Gakpo on his own for the most part last night, as well as attacking. An absolute dream. 

Guehi has been good considering the expectations on his, but i wouldn't have him down as having played better than Stones. He's been caught out a few times, which others would not get away with. Mainoo has been good considering his age, but looking good while passing the ball back aside while not really providing that much protection (30 mins last night excluded) isn't that progressive really - Others would get and have been slated for that. So if we're including them, may as well get Foden, Bellingham, Toney, Stones, Trent, Rice, Palmer in there too. 

A lot of people still like to be weird about Saka, but he has definitely been our best player this tournament. Amount of people who wanted to shift him to LB was astounding.

I think he has been better than Stones, whether that's down to Stones perhaps not being up to his usual high standards is another question. But Guehi really hasn't done much wrong given the lack of protection the defense has had throughout.

I reckon that is being a little harsh on Mainoo and doing a disservice. When he came on for his first cameo, there was a noticeable difference from what Gallagher was offering. Last night he was definitely on the front foot and should have been awarded player of the match I'm not suggesting he has been out of this world good. But he has certainly done more than any of our other midfield options (without putting his age and inexperience into context)

[enigmatic]

45 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

Yeah I'm just basing it off watching them play, not from rankings. It probably would have been an annihilation had Netherlands not changed it up after 30 odd minutes.  

Thing is, they looked **** for pretty much the same reason that England looked **** in previous games (they were remarkably similar, even down to the good bit of their game around the hour mark being them having a lot of slow, aimless possession with only a few set pieces to show for it). They were under a lot of pressure to actually win the game and nervous about it, their natural inclination in possession was to do whatever they could to keep it and in defence to avoid getting caught in behind rather than win the ball back and they'd spent the week doing ball to feet stuff that suited their own players rather than figuring out to nullify our best players and exploit our vulnerabilities. Took them until half time to realise that leaving Saka with loads of space might be a bad idea!

It's not a great Netherlands side and weaker than us up front (but with ridiculous depth in central defence) but ignoring rankings which are often out of date and weird they were still among the tournament favourites at the start, and exactly the sort of side that used to be the "first decent side" to knock us out

 

[TM]

don't get why anyone would care about rankings? Belgium were No1 for about 3 years and never got near their potential in any tournament

[mrmeee17]

10 minutes ago, WillHoward42 said:

I reckon that is being a little harsh on Mainoo and doing a disservice. When he came on for his first cameo, there was a noticeable difference from what Gallagher was offering. Last night he was definitely on the front foot and should have been awarded player of the match I'm not suggesting he has been out of this world good. But he has certainly done more than any of our other midfield options (without putting his age and inexperience into context)

I'm with kopsy, not sure I can agree with this.

He has been good to very good considering his age and the fact that it's his first international tournament.

But if we are to hold him to the same standards as everyone else then I don't think he's necessarily been at a level above everyone else as some are trying to make out.

Even in the most recent game (which was probably his best game), the whole team was generally good in the first half with Foden, Saka and him being the better players. In the second half no one really did too much of note up until Watkins' moment of brilliance at the end. So considering the overall game (which is based mostly on the first half) I'd personally say Foden was our best player considering he almost scored twice. Or you can give it to Watkins for his match winning brilliance in the limited time he had.

[WillHoward42]

I'm sorry, but Watkins had 4/5 touches for his 10 minute cameo. I am not taking anything away from the superb goal and finish, and of course it was the match winning goal.

But to suggest that performance is better than anyone else's contributions from the entire first 45 minutes... is a bit silly.

E: If England are 2-1 up and he comes up and does the exact same performance, is he still player of the match?

Edited July 11 by WillHoward42

[mrmeee17]

Not sure why that's your takeaway from my entire post tbh. Probably could read the entire post or even just the line before that.

Edited July 11 by mrmeee17

[PaulHartman71]

Mainoo for me looks really raw. Obviously will be some player in his prime but looks a little bit out of his depth at this level, but given who we have in the squad without having seen much of Wharton I don’t think anyone else in the squad would do better than him if that makes sense. 

I think he’s just exposed more where in another team’s squad like France or Spain he either doesn’t make the tournament or is on the bench. 

[Haguey]

Wharton isn't getting on now unless we are somehow 3-0 up with 5 minutes left on Sunday. I don't mind it really, both him and Mainoo have shot to stardom in the last six months but Wharton has been impressive within a team that was already safe in the league and could go under the radar a bit while Mainoo has often been Man Utd's best midfielder, and has already played and won a big pressure match. Can see why Southgate has trusted him rather than Wharton tbh.

[WillHoward42]

13 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Mainoo for me looks really raw. Obviously will be some player in his prime but looks a little bit out of his depth at this level, but given who we have in the squad without having seen much of Wharton I don’t think anyone else in the squad would do better than him if that makes sense. 

I think he’s just exposed more where in another team’s squad like France or Spain he either doesn’t make the tournament or is on the bench. 

I am not at all suggesting he is a world beater and some star already. But he has definitely looked comfortable and like he belongs in the squad. More so than others who have in fairness only sporadically had limited chances. He does not look out of his depth though...

[Dale0718]

15 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Mainoo for me looks really raw. Obviously will be some player in his prime but looks a little bit out of his depth at this level, but given who we have in the squad without having seen much of Wharton I don’t think anyone else in the squad would do better than him if that makes sense. 

I think he’s just exposed more where in another team’s squad like France or Spain he either doesn’t make the tournament or is on the bench. 

How the hell have you watched these matches and thought Mainoo is out of his depth?