adhikapp Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 If after that match Southgate still fields the same XI, he's absolutely braindead. The second Foden comes off, England scores twice. He should drop Foden from the starting lineup and just have him come on a sub for Saka/Bellingham. An actual LW needs to play for balance sake, beit Gordon or Eze. And if Shaw is somewhat fit, he has to start. And if anyone here is still defending Southgate after that last game, you're delusional. Switzerland did really well against Italy, and they'll do the same to England if Southgate doesn't change it up. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootador Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Never would have got the song without the bit in brackets 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) "Cause some chaos" "Something might drop" - always fills me with so much confidence. What a coach! Edited July 1 by Baptista_8 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliss Seeker Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Ahhhh yes, we get another 5 days of posts about Southgate being **** through hilarious memes, amazing tweets and jokes about how he only crosses roads with lollipop ladies on it. Nice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 27 minutes ago, Bliss Seeker said: Ahhhh yes, we get another 5 days of posts about Southgate being **** through hilarious memes, amazing tweets and jokes about how he only crosses roads with lollipop ladies on it. Nice! He got compared to Hitler in the match thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Cartman Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 From Reddit so dunno where the data is from, assume its right Passing network from the game Who needs a right side Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallen Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) Saka is only where he is on the touch map because he played left back for 30 minutes. Edited July 1 by Smallen 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Cartman Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 3 minutes ago, Smallen said: Saka is only where he is on the touch map because he played left back for 30 minutes. Doesn't explain Walker Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallen Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Walker plays as a third CB in build up (much like he does for City) which allows Trippier to play as high as he is. We all know it didn’t work but that particular part of the structure is solid in theory and extremely similar to what Pep and Arteta do. The left side is more the issue because we’re trying to play Trippier and Foden in roles they’re completely unsuited to. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_fenton Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 And Walker literally played 3rd centre back, not just during the build up, for some of the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmeee17 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Walker went RCB when Saka went RWB. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Cartman Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Must have missed all these formation changes amongst the awfulness of it all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwig Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Is it true that we were favourites going into the tournament? Even with the exciting talent coming through I’d say our back 5 are a cause for concern. I’d probably say we have 4 top quality players in their favoured position who most other nations would want, but maybe that’s better than most sides? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Cartman Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Favourites with the bookies means very little tbf, City have been favourites for the CL for years before ever winning it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 2 minutes ago, Bigwig said: Is it true that we were favourites going into the tournament? Even with the exciting talent coming through I’d say our back 5 are a cause for concern. I’d probably say we have 4 top quality players in their favoured position who most other nations would want, but maybe that’s better than most sides? It was true in the eyes of a lot of the fans and pundits, probably some players who listen far too much to their own hype and the associated criticism, and apparently according to OPTA too (19.9% chance of winning, 0.8% ahead of France - contrary to popular belief being "tournament favourites" doesn't mean you'll probably win it) In practice, it's a fairly typical England squad (i.e. much better than 2012-18) with a bit more technical ability and less defensive ability than usual with fewer of the top sides being good than usual, and the draw certainly doesn't hurt us on paper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_e Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 10 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said: Favourites with the bookies means very little tbf, City have been favourites for the CL for years before ever winning it Plus it’s based partly on what they think people will bet on, will always drive the price down where England are concerned. Even when we were **** we were rarely long odds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arenaross Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 26 minutes ago, Bigwig said: Is it true that we were favourites going into the tournament? Even with the exciting talent coming through I’d say our back 5 are a cause for concern. I’d probably say we have 4 top quality players in their favoured position who most other nations would want, but maybe that’s better than most sides? We are still favourites now. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallen Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 we have the best team on paper tbh. Even with Maguire missing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootador Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Favourites with the stattos as well, mainly because of the draw, but we are rightly favorites until we get to the final. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1981 Posted July 1 Author Share Posted July 1 Based on sims using the ELO rankings I think. It can’t be based on actually watching us play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceefax the cat Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Smallen said: we have the best team on paper tbh. Even with Maguire missing. I don't really get this. If we had ANY left backs and strong, settled pairings in midfield and central defence, perhaps... I'd say France and Spain have more convincing XI's. Edited July 1 by ceefax the cat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 4 minutes ago, Smallen said: we have the best team on paper tbh. Even with Maguire missing. But do you? Pickford is such an underwhelming goalkeeper even if we take into account that he's been mostly solid for England. Stones is a top class CB, but has been dealing with injuries all season long and has had an underwhelming tournament for his standards. Guehi did well, but has no experience on this level and is now suspended, with his replacements looking really uninspiring. Two starting right backs both look to be on their last legs and you can only hope they have a couple more top level matches in them. Trippier on the left has been such a handicap. Rice is class in a proper role, but he's playing...noone knows what he's playing in this system and looks average. Trials for who's going to be his partners are still going on. The talent for front four positions is overwhelming, but Southgate completely stifles it. For comparison, Switzerland surely has a better goalkeeper, defense and central midfield duo based on their fit and performances this tournament. England should still be winning the game based on overwhelming attacking quality, but due to Southgate it becomes more about defense playing well, which they aren't. If a game from yesterday is to repeat against the likes of Switzerland, Austria or Netherlands, you're gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallen Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 yeah we do. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 9 minutes ago, Smallen said: yeah we do. Portugal and especially France have better squads if we talk strong starting lineups and a lot of depth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhikapp Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 2 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said: But do you? Pickford is such an underwhelming goalkeeper even if we take into account that he's been mostly solid for England. Stones is a top class CB, but has been dealing with injuries all season long and has had an underwhelming tournament for his standards. Guehi did well, but has no experience on this level and is now suspended, with his replacements looking really uninspiring. Two starting right backs both look to be on their last legs and you can only hope they have a couple more top level matches in them. Trippier on the left has been such a handicap. Rice is class in a proper role, but he's playing...noone knows what he's playing in this system and looks average. Trials for who's going to be his partners are still going on. The talent for front four positions is overwhelming, but Southgate completely stifles it. For comparison, Switzerland surely has a better goalkeeper, defense and central midfield duo based on their fit and performances this tournament. England should still be winning the game based on overwhelming attacking quality, but due to Southgate it becomes more about defense playing well, which they aren't. If a game from yesterday is to repeat against the likes of Switzerland, Austria or Netherlands, you're gone. First I'll say things I disagree on. On paper, I'm not sure I'd put Schar-Akanji over Guehi-Stones. Genuinely think the latter is better. Guehi has been England's best defender in the Euro's, but that's on the others playing below their usual standards. Would rather Trent play RB since all Southgate does is cross & InsyaAllah, and he's set up very defensive anyways, so Trent shouldn't be 'exposed' Pickford looks underwhelming because he plays for Everton. Thought he had a Spurs move written all over him last season as I think that's his level, but Vicario was an astute signing by them. And Rice-Mainoo was a very good midfield pair last night. Was astounded Mainoo was subbed off, thought this was just Southgate scapegoating him last night for not winning. Rice himself had good stats vs Slovakia. It's the front 4 above the midfield pair that's been dumb and disjointed, there's only so much Rice can do. Certainly a better pair than Xhaka-Freuler. But I agree, not a lot of keepers are better than Sommer, so Switzerland has an edge on that. And I do agree that Trippier is a huge handicap playing there. He doesn't play or look like an inverted wingback a la Cancelo, or Dalot, or even Darmian. He looks so much like a right-back playing on the left, and always predictablly cuts to his right everytime he's near the byline. If Shaw was fit, this wouldn't be an issue, and on-paper is the 'balance' to this England squad. The biggest handicap though is Southgate. Murat Yakin completely dismantled Italy (who had friggin Spalletti), so a stubborn, dumb, and dull Southgate should not be a problem for him. If Southgate still starts Foden tomorrow, I know for sure Switzerland will win that game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmeee17 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 If we are talking on paper we should be referring to how good the players usually are. Because obviously if we are talking about how they've been playing this tournament under Southgate we all know they've been playing ****. Still think England have the best or at worst second best (behind France) team on paper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 6 minutes ago, adhikapp said: On paper, I'm not sure I'd put Schar-Akanji over Guehi-Stones. Genuinely think the latter is better. Guehi has been England's best defender in the Euro's, but that's on the others playing below their usual standards. Would rather Trent play RB since all Southgate does is cross & InsyaAllah, and he's set up very defensive anyways, so Trent shouldn't be 'exposed' Well, if you're about comparing England to specifically Switzerland, then Guehi is out of the equation as he's suspended. Stones is obviously a class above Akanji when fit, but he doesn't seem to be and Akanji has had a ridiculous tournament so far. Hasn't put a foot wrong, which is kind of uncharacteristic for him. (He's surely going to bottle it against England. ) Everyone would rather see Trent at RB, but that's just whataboutism since Southgate doesn't rate him. Quote Pickford looks underwhelming because he plays for Everton. Thought he had a Spurs move written all over him last season as I think that's his level, but Vicario was an astute signing by them. Contrary to outfield players, goalkeepers mostly look better when they play for worse teams. Looking underwhelming at a bad team isn't a good look for a goalkeeper. Quote And Rice-Mainoo was a very good midfield pair last night. Was astounded Mainoo was subbed off, thought this was just Southgate scapegoating him last night for not winning. Rice himself had good stats vs Slovakia. It's the front 4 above the midfield pair that's been dumb and disjointed, there's only so much Rice can do. Certainly a better pair than Xhaka-Freuler. Why are they better, just because of transfermarkt value? While Rice is a better player than Xhaka, that doesn't mean Xhaka isn't very good and he's definitely better in the role they're playing. England would love to have Xhaka as a deeper partner to Rice. But since Rice has to play the Xhaka role, it's not functional. Freuler is one of the more underrated players out there. Noone picked him in our draft games. Isn't class at anything, but does everything well. A player you can put in every system and he'll do the job, enabling the stars to do their thing. He's Bologna's captain, they just made CL for the first time ever and he's been great all season long. Mainoo looks to be the next great talent, but he's not there yet. Especially not with the burden of entire England on his back. Quote And I do agree that Trippier is a huge handicap playing there. He doesn't play or look like an inverted wingback a la Cancelo, or Dalot, or even Darmian. He looks so much like a right-back playing on the left, and always predictablly cuts to his right everytime he's near the byline. If Shaw was fit, this wouldn't be an issue, and on-paper is the 'balance' to this England squad. For me it's not even about his attacking play which we all knew would be a handicap, but it looks like his legs are gone and he's not that great on defense anymore. Combine it with his lack of height and in some matchups it could get ugly. For example Foden-Mainoo-Trippier left side triangle would look highly questionable defensively against Dumfries-Simons-Frimpong triangle. (Good that you listed Darmian. He was as useless as Trippier in LB role with 4 man defense. Awful decisions from Spalletti.) The entire problem with Shaw situation is that it feels like Southgate was expecting some kind of miraculous recovery while Shaw is obviously a long way from being ready. And then he's supposed to start in let's say a semi-final? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairwad Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Watching the end of the game back, the move between formations was notable (for an England side). We basically went to a 4-4-2 when Toney came on after the standard 4-2-3-1 all game. Then to a 3-5-2 for the first half of extra time. Then to a 5-4-1 for the second half of extra time, transitioning to a 3-4-3 for the few times we attacked. I wonder if he might consider a 3-5-2 for the Switzerland match as it a) removes the left back issue if Shaw is still not available and b) gives Kane a notional partner higher up the pitch whether that be Toney or Bellingham. We did look relatively comfortable in extra time compared to the first half. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arenaross Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haguey Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 1 hour ago, GunmaN1905 said: Portugal and especially France have better squads if we talk strong starting lineups and a lot of depth. nah Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
titchuk Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 12 minutes ago, arenaross said: The ellipsis like they're announcing who's going home on X Factor 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 3 minutes ago, titchuk said: The ellipsis like they're announcing who's going home on X Factor they should live stream the punishment. it's going to be either... a one-game ban, a £20k fine or a stern warning.... it's definitely not [opens envelope]....a stern warning. so that leaves a one game ban or a £20k fine... join us after the break... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalkSport Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 46 minutes ago, hairwad said: Watching the end of the game back, the move between formations was notable (for an England side). We basically went to a 4-4-2 when Toney came on after the standard 4-2-3-1 all game. Then to a 3-5-2 for the first half of extra time. Then to a 5-4-1 for the second half of extra time, transitioning to a 3-4-3 for the few times we attacked. I wonder if he might consider a 3-5-2 for the Switzerland match as it a) removes the left back issue if Shaw is still not available and b) gives Kane a notional partner higher up the pitch whether that be Toney or Bellingham. We did look relatively comfortable in extra time compared to the first half. Walker-Stones-Konsa Trippier - Mainoo - Rice - Saka Foden Kane - Bellingham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliss Seeker Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 49 minutes ago, hairwad said: I wonder if he might consider a 3-5-2 for the Switzerland match as it a) removes the left back issue if Shaw is still not available and b) gives Kane a notional partner higher up the pitch whether that be Toney or Bellingham. We did look relatively comfortable in extra time compared to the first half. Doubt it, if we couldn't fathom that the group stage performances were so bad that they needed more than the rotation of just one position, an entire change of system is highly unlikely. Recent history tells us we're probably going to see just the enforced replacement of Konsa for Guehi. Everything else, as it was. 3-5-2 makes sense to me with the players available, but it won't happen. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Cartman Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 55 minutes ago, arenaross said: Theres a UEFA Ethics inspector? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliss Seeker Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Some statagraphics (?) from Sky about yesterday's match: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliss Seeker Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 (edited) John Stones either isn't fit, or he's treating Southgate like a substitute teacher and taking the ****. He'd never play like that under Pep, he'd be too scared to. The same goes for Walker, they're both underperforming massively. Southgate's a problem, but a lot of these players are massively under-representing themselves, and it's not just because of the tactics. Edited July 1 by Bliss Seeker Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Cartman Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 So Rice can't play a successful forward pass, Foden is just receiving the ball and passing backwards, and Stones didn't even attempt a pass through the middle Brilliant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwig Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Just give Pep the job. Easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootador Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 13 minutes ago, Bigwig said: Just give Pep the job. Easy. Southgate should be forced to stay on until we've got a proper manager in, if we can get Pep in 2025 then he should be made to stay until then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartwork Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhikapp Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 3 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said: Well, if you're about comparing England to specifically Switzerland, then Guehi is out of the equation as he's suspended. Stones is obviously a class above Akanji when fit, but he doesn't seem to be and Akanji has had a ridiculous tournament so far. Hasn't put a foot wrong, which is kind of uncharacteristic for him. (He's surely going to bottle it against England. ) Everyone would rather see Trent at RB, but that's just whataboutism since Southgate doesn't rate him. Guehi being suspended and only having Konsa and Dunk is really dumb too, I don't agree with Southgate at all with his defenders selection when Dier & Tomori are watching at wherever they're having their holidays at. I guess my point is on paper, when everyone is fit, a defence of Trent-Stones-Guehi-Shaw is really good/good enough to be tournament favorites. 3 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said: Why are they better, just because of transfermarkt value? While Rice is a better player than Xhaka, that doesn't mean Xhaka isn't very good and he's definitely better in the role they're playing. England would love to have Xhaka as a deeper partner to Rice. But since Rice has to play the Xhaka role, it's not functional. Maybe we were watching different things last night, and I haven't opened transfermarkt or brought it up at all. Yes you can debate that Slovakia was doing nothing to try and stop Rice & Mainoo do stuff with the ball, but all we can judge is what Rice & Mainoo did when they had it, and the stats look pretty good. Again, theyre not the problem, and it's the players in front of the pair that's frustrating and that's on Southgates (lack of) coaching. 3 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said: Freuler is one of the more underrated players out there. Noone picked him in our draft games. Isn't class at anything, but does everything well. A player you can put in every system and he'll do the job, enabling the stars to do their thing. He's Bologna's captain, they just made CL for the first time ever and he's been great all season long. Guess Freuler's reputation is clouded by the Brit-centric forum here when he was at Forest. I agree with you that he's a good player and thought he was a great catch for Forest, but it just didn't work out. For the record, I would've definitely had Freuler if I was in the Euro draft compared to some of the actual selections 3 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said: The entire problem with Shaw situation is that it feels like Southgate was expecting some kind of miraculous recovery while Shaw is obviously a long way from being ready. And then he's supposed to start in let's say a semi-final? That's definitely on Southgate and I don't defend him at all. Don't know if he could've brought Chilwell (who's just as injury prone as Shaw if not worse), but Tyrick Mitchell was there for him to look at, especially if he had 4 other Palace players already in the squad, and knows how to play with Guehi on that side of defense. Or any of the 4 English LBs Newcastle plays before Trippier (Burn, Hall, Targett, Livramento). In a 26-man squad, only bringing 1 LB is malpractice no matter which way you cut it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalkSport Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 2 hours ago, Bliss Seeker said: John Stones either isn't fit, or he's treating Southgate like a substitute teacher and taking the ****. He'd never play like that under Pep, he'd be too scared to. The same goes for Walker, they're both underperforming massively. Southgate's a problem, but a lot of these players are massively under-representing themselves, and it's not just because of the tactics. I don’t think he’s particular fit, also don’t think he’s the normal Stones and a reason why Pep didn’t use him much in the title run in. Still that said, it’s clear it’s a tactical choice by Southgate to be more risk averse with our play. Our weakness even before this tournament been the defensive transition, and the times we’ve lost the ball this tournament, we’ve been played through with ease. Think we’re heavily fortunate there’s a fair chance we won’t face a ‘named’ side till the final, so our approach could just about get us there without it ever really being a good approach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 4 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said: Stones is obviously a class above Akanji when fit Not sure about that. Also think Spain's midfield three betters ours in terms of balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 3 hours ago, Barry Cartman said: Theres a UEFA Ethics inspector? There's certainly no such role at FIFA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 tbf, if there ever was any ethical behaviour in FIFA their inspector has done a good job of identifying it and ruling it out... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XuluBak Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Drop Foden cause he's awful for England. 3-4-1-2 with Saka and TAA as your WBs (Walker as RCB), Toney and Kane with Bellingham in behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 9 minutes ago, XuluBak said: Drop Foden cause he's awful for England. 3-4-1-2 with Saka and TAA as your WBs (Walker as RCB), Toney and Kane with Bellingham in behind. All becomes a pointless discussion though don't it cos we all know Southgate won't change it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haguey Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Completely changing the formation for one they've never used isn't happening for any team Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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