Quarter Final 3: England vs Switzerland live from the Düsseldorf Arena. Saturday BBC1 5pm

[craigcwwe]

Was looking at the clock during the second half of ET to will it to penalties, reckon that's the first time I've ever wanted to see us go to penalties.  Was as confident as you can be that we'd beat them there as well given the takers we had on, even without Kane. 

[av3ry]

Looking forward to out-scumming the Dutch in midweek. Good luck 

[titchuk]

Give Gareth his knighthood NOW

[Pedwar Pump]

Toney’s penalty was extraordinary 

[thefmveteran86]

20 minutes ago, Pedwar Pump said:

Toney’s penalty was extraordinary 

I agree that no-look shot was peak but when Saka came up and his steps was very small, if it goes in I'm happy either way unlike when Pogba took his

[SouthCoastRed]

46 minutes ago, titchuk said:

Give Gareth his knighthood NOW

First things first, Rob first, then Gareth

[PaulHartman71]

Has to drop Kane for Toney if we want to win it. Obviously won’t though.  

Felt like so many times Saka put passes into the box but was nobody there. 

I’m sure in the first half on a replay for one of them Kane was taking a gentle stroll from outside of the box rather than running in to get on the end of it. 

[Baptista_8]

Palmer also has to play for me. He's the only player making incisive passes. Foden's aimless lofts into the box aren't the answer.

[PaulHartman71]

2 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Palmer also has to play for me. He's the only player making incisive passes. Foden's aimless lofts into the box aren't the answer.

Foden should be nowhere near the first XI. Shaw starting would certainly help, but even then, he’s done nothing all tournament from an onside position. 

It seems clear to me that Southgate doesn’t trust Gordon to replace him, in which case he should’ve just taken Grealish or Rashford. 

[The_jagster]

6 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Palmer also has to play for me. He's the only player making incisive passes. Foden's aimless lofts into the box aren't the answer.

I don't think his contributions suggested he'd be any better than Foden in this side really

[Baptista_8]

7 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I don't think his contributions suggested he'd be any better than Foden in this side really

Really? Crazy.

[PaulHartman71]

I don’t think Palmer has looked particularly special. 

Only players who come out of today’s game with any credit in normal time for me are Saka, Mainoo and Pickford, possibly Stones and Konsa. Rice looked better than he has but still wasn’t amazing. 

Everyone else was below their level, average or poor IMO. 

[darren1983]

I shouldn't be but I'm amazed at how many people didn't realise that's how Toney takes every penalty  

[thefmveteran86]

As much as I despise penalties I can see it going all the way but I hope we end it within 90 mins Wednesday

[PaulHartman71]

 

Obviously a decent amount of these are from penalties or corners, but the open-play ones are just mad to me. I look at some of these and think **** me we've got this guy up-front, we should be flying. I don't get what it is when he puts on an England shirt that means half the time he's just pants. I know the system isn't great, but Southgate isn't telling him to avoid getting in the box like he is so often. It's just so weird.

[Baptista_8]

9 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

I don’t think Palmer has looked particularly special. 

Only players who come out of today’s game with any credit in normal time for me are Saka, Mainoo and Pickford, possibly Stones and Konsa. Rice looked better than he has but still wasn’t amazing. 

Everyone else was below their level, average or poor IMO. 

I wouldn't say he's looked 'special' in the limited minutes he's been given either. But he's the only one looking to play incisive passes into feet in dangerous areas. And he can make space for himself to attempt these passes, something Foden's looking incapable of doing.

[aggressive minor]

Southgate clueless as always, always gets lucky draws.

Great to see a penalty shootout win!

[skybluedave]

44 minutes ago, darren1983 said:

I shouldn't be but I'm amazed at how many people didn't realise that's how Toney takes every penalty  

Does he always do the no look thing? I know he does the short run up

[darren1983]

4 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Does he always do the no look thing? I know he does the short run up

Every time yeah. Just before the world cup he scored in a TV match and afterwards Neville asked him about it and he said he never looks at the ball because it doesn't move and neither does the goal so he just watches the keeper

[Ackter]

People being very harsh on Greece in this thread. It may have been boring, but their Euro win was down to amazing teamwork and defensive play, not lucky ******** and last second goals from nowhere.

[Haguey]

Don't rate Palmer in this tournament, offered nothing really. Good pen though.

I would absolutely drop Kane but for Watkins against the Dutch as they have more quality on paper than what we have faced so far, they are likely to be more expansive so leave more gaps, plus you can get at their backline too.

[Rob1981]

This thread

My word.

[Rick87]

10 hours ago, VP. said:

Winning penalty shoot-outs is like making love to a beautiful woman...

It happens only once per decade if your lucky?

[TalkSport]

People go overboard on Foden. That was his best game last night, getting on the ball in the areas you want him too, central and sometimes deeper. Getting back to make the tackles on Xhaka. Why the clamour from likes of me and others to play him central in a 4-3-3. 

Like getting on the ball on half turn, then seeing the run of Saka and playing it pinpoint is what you want. Just Kane killed it by not moving in that whole sequence.

Doesn’t get talked about as he’s Mr Big Boy, but Bellingham was proper **** again last night. Didn’t help Foden in the press (and neither did Kane), was spent within the 90. Understand Gareth wants to leave him on so he can produce something, but it’s hurting the side as a result because it’s a central player with no energy.

Edited July 7 by TalkSport

[Barnzy]

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

This thread

My word.

Yep I’ve read through what I felt was a load of people almost willing England to be crap, nowhere near as bad  as previous games, we’re improving at the right time. 
 

and for the England fans that want us to go out, have a word with yourselves. 

[Barnzy]

7 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

People go overboard on Foden. That was his best game last night, getting on the ball in the areas you want him too, central and sometimes deeper. Getting back to make the tackles on Xhaka. Why the clamour from likes of me and others to play him central in a 4-3-3. 

Like getting on the ball on half turn, then seeing the run of Saka and playing it pinpoint is what you want. Just Kane killed it by not moving in that whole sequence.

Doesn’t get talked about as he’s Mr Big Boy, but Bellingham was proper **** again last night. Didn’t help Foden in the press (and neither did Kane), was spent within the 90. Understand Gareth wants to leave him on so he can produce something, but it’s hurting the side as a result because it’s a central player with no energy.

Thought Foden was way more effective last night and agree about Bellingham - appears almost lazy at times - playing higher than Kane and not coming back when there is a counter on 

[arenaross]

I kinda feel like Kane being about as useful as a one legged turtle isn't helping Foden or Bellingham. 

 

[Andrew_]

The narrative around England really has changed from some people. Watching the first few minutes of The Rest Is Football. Seems like they were watching a different game. The mask does slip a little then they catch themselves "They didn't create any chances.. but... it was better than the last game"

[eenie]

I don't know why pundits can't hold two things to be true at once: it's great for England fans that they're into the semis, but the level of performance is still really bad.

Well, actually, I suspect there's been a backlash at some of the (valid) criticism levelled earlier in the tournament and now they feel like they have to positive for the good of the nation or whatever.

Against a really good side in good form, England's approach could easily come undone, but realistically most of the good sides have been crap so it's been a valid, if incredibly dull, strategy.

[Redshift]

38 minutes ago, Barnzy said:

Yep I’ve read through what I felt was a load of people almost willing England to be crap,

 

No need to will such a thing

[Baptista_8]

38 minutes ago, Barnzy said:

Thought Foden was way more effective last night and agree about Bellingham - appears almost lazy at times - playing higher than Kane and not coming back when there is a counter on 

Foden was better but effective? Aimless lofts into the box are all he's offering. There are many reasons why we're not creating clear cut chances but Foden is one of them. Him getting in a dangerous area yesterday and panicking playing a blind pass to a Swiss defender kinda summed his performances up.

[Bliss Seeker]

Haha you people still think you know something Gareth doesn't 

Don't you get it?

Can't you see it by now?

You absolute fools. 

He's operating on a different plain from the the rest of us. Whatever we thought football was about before, it means nothing now.

He's 10 steps ahead, he's like a multiversal overlord who's seen every combination, every outcome and knows exactly how we're winning this. 

He's the most relaxed, confident person there is, because he knows. 

Stop questioning it and just submit to his greatness, you'll feel much better for it

 

[Rob1981]

41 minutes ago, Andrew_ said:

The mask does slip a little, then they catch themselves. “They didn't create any chances.. but... it was better than the last game"

These things can both be true though?

Yesterday was fairly typical of the cagey games you often get at this stage of an international tournament.

It wasn’t a thrill a minute, but it was clearly a much improved England performance. We kept possession and looked comfortable for long periods. Players knew their roles. They weren’t out there misplacing basic passes and then glaring at each other because things weren’t working.

[SouthCoastRed]

1 hour ago, arenaross said:

I kinda feel like Kane being about as useful as a one legged turtle isn't helping Foden or Bellingham. 

 

One legged turtles up and down the land are OUTRAGED at this slanderous comparison 

[SouthCoastRed]

15 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

These things can both be true though?

Yesterday was fairly typical of the cagey games you often get at this stage of an international tournament.

It wasn’t a thrill a minute, but it was clearly a much improved England performance. We kept possession and looked comfortable for long periods. Players knew their roles. They weren’t out there misplacing basic passes and then glaring at each other because things weren’t working.

Certainly was way better than previous, albeit that's a low bar. Up to half time I'd go as far as to say it was ok, without ever being threatening, it was certainly competent. 
 

Second half till the Swiss scored not so, but the reaction to going behind was excellent. Extra time granted wasn't pretty, but when the focal point of the attack is either injured, knackered or determined to play in a defensive midfield role, the whole balance gets thrown. 
 

 

[Baptista_8]

[JJ72]

Yes,  first few matches the whole team sucked. Yesterday,  it was Kane massively stinking the place up. 

Trippier wasn't effective at lwb but then that's not a surprise.  Eze was more ineffective I felt when he came on.  Drifted inside too often. Whole point of the wingback was to overlap and get in crosses or run outside - see Saka.  Obviously Saka and trippier are completely different players and give different things. 

Foden was excellent first half,  as others have said,  he got into the sort of space and positions where he's dangerous for city.  Felt he, and the whole team,  drifted second half until the Swiss scored. 

Still lots to work on but it was better. Kane is a massive issue.  2nd tournament in a row where he's looked like a cart horse.

[GunmaN1905]

I'll repeat that the absolute worst bit of yesterday's game from tactical standpoint was Southgate's veto for wide CBs to even think about pushing forward.

Most of the chances Switzerland created came with Rodriguez and Schar, their wide CBs, being close or even in the box, but whenver England had the ball close to the box, Walker and Konsa literally weren't even in the picture, leaving wingbacks to their own devices.

Just tragic tactical incompetence saved by another brilliant move from a class player and a lot of luck in extra time.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Please tell me the next game will be an 8pm start? I want England to send me to sleep at a reasonable time.

[Lucas]

17 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

I'll repeat that the absolute worst bit of yesterday's game from tactical standpoint was Southgate's veto for wide CBs to even think about pushing forward.

Most of the chances Switzerland created came with Rodriguez and Schar, their wide CBs, being close or even in the box, but whenver England had the ball close to the box, Walker and Konsa literally weren't even in the picture, leaving wingbacks to their own devices.

Just tragic tactical incompetence saved by another brilliant move from a class player and a lot of luck in extra time.

It was amazing seeing our transformation once we went behind. Suddenly playing quick and direct and scored. 
It does feel a bit like we are allergic to attacking unless we have to, hence our first shots on targets in the last two games being in stoppage time and the 80th minute  

[Andrew_]

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

These things can both be true though?

Yesterday was fairly typical of the cagey games you often get at this stage of an international tournament.

It wasn’t a thrill a minute, but it was clearly a much improved England performance. We kept possession and looked comfortable for long periods. Players knew their roles. They weren’t out there misplacing basic passes and then glaring at each other because things weren’t working.

Depends where you set the bar for these players. Southgate has it set so low that when there's a small improvement on that it's seen as a "much improved performance". Players knowing their role and not misplacing basic passes isn't something that should be celebrated this far into a tournament. It should be the starting point.

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, Andrew_ said:

Players knowing their role and not misplacing basic passes isn't something that should be celebrated this far into a tournament. It should be the starting point.

Don't disagree with that.  But that's a different argument altogether.

Your previous post implied pundits were wrong to call it an improved peformance because we still didn't create many chances.  But one doesn't necessarily drive the other, especially against an excellent Switzerland side that everyone was raving about before kickoff.

[Andrew_]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

Don't disagree with that.  But that's a different argument altogether.

Your previous post implied pundits were wrong to call it an improved peformance because we still didn't create many chances.  But one doesn't necessarily drive the other, especially against an excellent Switzerland side that everyone was raving about before kickoff.

Ah. Wasn't the best line for me to include. Point was a couple times in the podcast something negative creeped in which was quickly turned into a positive. Which is a big change to a few days ago. Wasn't linking chances to performance. 

[Crispypaul]

3 semi finals out of 4 tournaments is a "low bar" apparently..

[Andrew_]

8 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

3 semi finals out of 4 tournaments is a "low bar" apparently..

And here's the Southgate effect for all to see. Happy with mediocrity. Not what could be.

[Bliss Seeker]

Haven't seen much praise for Konsa. For someone coming in for his 3rd cap (?), starting a quarter final up against a flying Swiss team he held his ground and made some goal saving interceptions.

Seemed to make decisions on the ball and passed quicker than Guehi too.

Also, I've been really critical of Stones  but thought he was much much better yesterday. Especially in that first half where he brought the ball forward and was camped beyond the half way line, rather than his own box.

Would love him to bring the ball forward like he does at City more, but that was better from him.

Everything starts from him, so he needed that performance.

 

 

 

[Bliss Seeker]

4 minutes ago, Andrew_ said:

And here's the Southgate effect for all to see. Happy with mediocrity. Not what could be.

Mediocrity compared to what?

Certainly not history, because 3 semis in 4 years is unprecedented and way beyond any sort of mediocrity.

Remember Southgate has given you that right to feel complacent and expect to win these tournaments. Nothing that came before allows you to think that way.

Submit to his greatness.

Edited July 7 by Bliss Seeker

[aggressive minor]

19 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

3 semi finals out of 4 tournaments is a "low bar" apparently..

Low bar in terms of performances this tournament, come on, you know what he meant 

[Rob1981]

Ahahahaha   3 semi finals in four tournaments is MEDIOCRITY lads.

Italy have only managed this once in their entire history (1988, 1990, 1994).  Portugal have only done this once (2000, 2004, 2006).  Spain have only done this once (2008, 2010, 2012).  Netherlands have only done it twice (1974, 1976, 1978 and 1998, 2000, 2004).

England, it won't surprise you to hear, had never done it before yesterday.  Ever.  Even reaching the quarter final stage... we are the ONLY European team to reach the last eight at all of the last four World Cups and Euros.

Again, I think people need to take a step back and recalibrate expectations somewhat.  You can moan about the performances all you want, but you need to remember just how difficult it is to get to the business end of these competitions consistently.

Nobody has a divine right to reach semi finals and finals every time just because most of their players are good.

**** me.

[Redshift]

To be honest, we have been very lucky to have got this far given our performances and style of play against teams that, no disrespect to them, are not as good as us on paper and don't have our player quality. You always want to see your team playing well so you know they will be in with a shout against the bigger teams later on.

Having said that, we are at the stage of the tournament where you just want a result and will be happy to have a bit of luck as well and if Southgate can make that happen he will be back in our good books. If we crash and burn against the Netherlands it will be, I told you so. Hopefully it will be the former