Football Manager TV: Tactics

[MBarbaric]

@apvmoreira

i think I had different transitions in mind which doesn't help in discussion. In all honesty, what @yonko referres to as transition, I've interpreted as counter attack which was really wrong on my side. 

2 minutes ago, apvmoreira said:

But even positional attacks need to have a transition, right?

indeed, my wrong as I've said

 

3 minutes ago, apvmoreira said:

When Modric is defending he has one role that Zidane makes him to have. When Real recoves the ball, Modric knows that he needs to do certain tasks to provide the ball as fast as he can to the attackers, the attacking transition. Even if its made 1km/h!

And the same applies to the defensive transition. Modric knows which player he needs to press, or what zone he needs to be to defend, and the way he gets to that task is the defensive transition.

precisely

[Confused Clarity]

12 hours ago, herne79 said:

I think that's one of the best ideas I've ever heard.  When you get a mo, raise it in the Feature Requests Forum .

 

I like this idea, would be good to see multiple clips per role though. So, taking the playmaker argument as an example, seeing say the difference in how a player with high finishing/long shot attributes differs to a player with lower attributes in the same role.

 

It's never going to be a one size fits all way of playing for each role and they won't be able to show us all the possibilities and variables, but some examples that allow us to be able to understand better would be great.

[Goosewinkle]

On 10/12/2017 at 11:27, Mr U Rosler said:

Does this mean we'll now have to successfully negotiate 3 click button tests without saying something wrong which would render our shiny new tactic useless?

Press Conference, Pre Match Tactics talk, Team Talk? 

Yep these are my thoughts too.  The least satisfying and most chore-like parts of the game are all these interactions.  And the forums are full of posts complaining about how a team talk ruined a game, and likewise full of posts about how team talks have barely any effect.  The game is too opaque for people to tell.  

To me every press conference and team talk is just me clicking stuff by rote and thinking "bah ok whatever who cares".  I am a little baffled that they've decided FM needs even more of this.

[yonko]

6 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

I think we have different transitions in mind. A transition is progression from one third of the field to another (preferrably, closer to opposition goal) and leads to a positional attack once the team stabilises possession in the middle third.

 

The only transitions I'm talking about as the most important in the modern game are from defense to attack and from attack to defense. Those are 2 of the 4 phases of the game. The other two are obvious. What you talk about is progressions from one third to another, which is not transitions as phases of play. Still, positional attacks is not the most important part of the game as you claimed. Not all teams use positional attack, in fact most teams don't. But every team uses transitions because transitions are.....phases of the game.....in every match. Hence why transitions are the most important moment of the game.

The second most important part of the game is......set pieces. 

6 hours ago, apvmoreira said:

And i even see defensive transition more important than the attacking one.

Why would they be more important that attacking transitions?

The game starts at 0-0. To win you have to score and break the tie. To do so, your team must exploit and take advantage of the attacking transitions. 

[Weston]

Hey, at least the player symbols on the formation screen are shirt-shaped again instead of rectangles!

[qwerty22]

Good additions to the tactics part of the game, Since the awful boxes are gone, Next time please listen to the community instead of being stubborn. Also the guys who usually blindly defend SI must be gutted to see the boxes gone after praising their inclusion last year eh?....Hopefully manager pictures will be back as well!

If the team talks,Press conferences and the general human interaction module is untouched this year then all these new additions will mean nothing. Just like if the ME can't illustrate different types of roles makes adding new roles with fancy names just fluff, In the end whatever you do you'll concede the same repetitive goals over and over again.

Don't mean to be negative it's early days, Just a heads up.

As for the actual video, I like a lot of the stuff presented and the tactics interface are definetely better this year, The player links and the more set pieces options are a step in the right direction and a very welcome addition.  We need a visual representation of how the team and players will move during transitions though, And how different roles behave with regard to covering space, pressing style and area of attack support, Things are still vague IMHO.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2017 by qwerty22

[RTHerringbone]

5 hours ago, Goosewinkle said:

Yep these are my thoughts too.  The least satisfying and most chore-like parts of the game are all these interactions.  And the forums are full of posts complaining about how a team talk ruined a game, and likewise full of posts about how team talks have barely any effect.  The game is too opaque for people to tell.  

To me every press conference and team talk is just me clicking stuff by rote and thinking "bah ok whatever who cares".  I am a little baffled that they've decided FM needs even more of this.

It's a large part of the reason I play FMT. Can't you just delegate the responsibility for this to your assistant? I feel he stuffs up, then it's an issue but otherwise it gets you round all this stuff.

[MBarbaric]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

What you talk about is progressions from one third to another, which is not transitions as phases of play.

but progression from one third to another is a transition. transition is by definition, a process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another.

In football that means a transition from attack to defence and from defence to attack. So, it is a way the team organizes itself to get from one main phase to another (defence/attack/defence). I never said it is not important. Where we disagree is that you appear to believe that positional attack is somehow less important than transition. Positive transition (from defence to attack) is how teams move as a unit/organize themselves in order to get to opposition goal. 

If defending team isn't able to get into defensive position, the attacking team will get into counter attack. If you look at the table attached you will see that this happens relatively rarely and attacking transition will, in most cases, end up as positional attack. 

 

8 hours ago, yonko said:

Not all teams use positional attack, in fact most teams don't.

I really don't understand what you mean when you say this. Could you give me few examples of teams that don't use positional attacks? I think here is the crux of the misunderstanding we have. mainly, different definitions.

- positional attack - attack against a set up defence

- set up defence - defensive unit in their defensive shape prepared for the opposition attack

- transition - behaviour of the team when they change from attacking phase to defensive phase and reverse

- a counter attack - attack on unprepared/disorganized defence

- unprepared/disorganized defence - a defensive unit not able to get into their defensive shape in order to stop the opposition attack

Edited October 14, 2017 by MBarbaric

[pedrosantos]

5 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

but progression from one third to another is a transition. transition is by definition, a process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another.

In football that means a transition from attack to defence and from defence to attack. So, it is a way the team organizes itself to get from one main phase to another (defence/attack/defence). I never said it is not important. Where we disagree is that you appear to believe that positional attack is somehow less important than transition. Positive transition (from defence to attack) is how teams move as a unit/organize themselves in order to get to opposition goal. 

If defending team isn't able to get into defensive position, the attacking team will get into counter attack. If you look at the table attached you will see that this happens relatively rarely and attacking transition will, in most cases, end up as positional attack. 

 

I really don't understand what you mean when you say this. Could you give me few examples of teams that don't use positional attacks? I think here is the crux of the misunderstanding we have.

Quite simple: 4 processes / phases

defensive transition, defensive organisation, offensive transition, offensive organisation: transitions are periods related to the moment of loosing or gaining possession (6 seconds rule as for example and any other rules), organisation are periods with or without the ball. Progression is just something that is present (or not) within this processes.

 

As for the thread it self and just by judging by the screenshots of the video, I'm very disappointed that SI didn't change nothing when it comes to pressing. 

[Wavelberry]

4-4-2

[Liquid Cool]

On 10/12/2017 at 18:14, Keyzer Soze said:

+1

The underlap it's a cool addition, but i don't understand why they didn't take the opportunity to make the option separate, as for the overlap, for the right and left flank. Having to have the same option on both sides don't make any sense.

 

Wow, yeah. That one should really have separate left/right settings. Forcing symmetry like that makes no sense. 

[apvmoreira]

12 hours ago, yonko said:

Why would they be more important that attacking transitions?

The game starts at 0-0. To win you have to score and break the tie. To do so, your team must exploit and take advantage of the attacking transitions. 

 

Well, IMO is where you loose the games. As a manager i know that the tactic itself does not crack defensive systems, creativity does.  When we see teams defending with 8 players and Messi pulling all those dribbles to open the vault, is manager does not influence him on that, He may give some instructions to fulfill all the potential, mas the players head does the rest.

 

On the other hand, defensive transition and even positional defense have a lot of the managers hand on it, so from a manager point of view, he needs to care more about it, than the attacking phases.

 

But all phases are important, don't take me wrong.

[s1111]

The come out of defence instructions is a PPM so that the players who do it can be limited. No point asking your clogger Conference North CD with 2 for Passing, Dribbling and Vision to do it and much easier to code the specific unique behaviour in a balanced way in the ME. A CD will need certain attributes to do it so best to limit to the likes of Stones, Hummels, Pique etc.

The new roles are interesting though a generic AMR/L is still missing. Not hard to just transfer the AM S/A to there surely.

The new roles all seem to have unique movement behaviours like the Half Back has, which seems to be the way forward SI are going now. The carrilero is particularly interesting because the emphasis on lateral movement suggests that it's been improved in the ME, which was a big weakness before. The mezzala is an odd one because it's a role specific to Italian football and it's hard to see what differentiates from the BBM and carrilero, it's also debatable what the role actually is and if the SI interpretation of it is actually right? The Segundo Volante should make playing a proper double pivot easier and using 2 DMs more viable. The inverted winger is more for the AI than human player as you can just use a modified WM.

 

[Goosewinkle]

11 hours ago, RTHerringbone said:

16 hours ago, Goosewinkle said:

To me every press conference and team talk is just me clicking stuff by rote and thinking "bah ok whatever who cares".  I am a little baffled that they've decided FM needs even more of this.

It's a large part of the reason I play FMT. Can't you just delegate the responsibility for this to your assistant? I feel he stuffs up, then it's an issue but otherwise it gets you round all this stuff.

Agreed, you can always delegate stuff to your assistant, though that's also unsatisfying.  Then you're watching the game play itself.  I just think it's not good design.  It's more and more bloat.  I counted up the possible team talk choices once and I think it was 27, considering the combinations of mood + message.  And that's not including specific defenders/midfielders/attackers talks.

The interactions always make me think of the Sid Meier adage about a good game being a series of interesting decisions.  Deciding among 27 team talk options is not very interesting when surely most of them have the same outcome (or possibly negligible outcome).  Neither is deciding among 20 responses to each press conference question (4 moods x 5 messages).  

The worst offender IMO is the touchline talks like "concentrate!".  Why wouldn't I want the team to concentrate?  Why is the game offering me this choice?

[pedrosantos]

18 minutes ago, Goosewinkle said:

The worst offender IMO is the touchline talks like "concentrate!".  Why wouldn't I want the team to concentrate?  Why is the game offering me this choice?

I would go even a bit further, does anybody knows what those touchline instructions do in practical terms? Does it have an impact in players attributes ? instructions ? is it explained somewhere ?

[Scotty Walds]

31 minutes ago, Goosewinkle said:

The worst offender IMO is the touchline talks like "concentrate!".  Why wouldn't I want the team to concentrate?  Why is the game offering me this choice?

You often see a manager pointing to his head and shouting "Concentrate!" after his team has scored a crucial goal.

[Guest El Payaso]

1 hour ago, Goosewinkle said:

Agreed, you can always delegate stuff to your assistant, though that's also unsatisfying.  Then you're watching the game play itself.  I just think it's not good design.  It's more and more bloat.  I counted up the possible team talk choices once and I think it was 27, considering the combinations of mood + message.  And that's not including specific defenders/midfielders/attackers talks.

The worst offender IMO is the touchline talks like "concentrate!".  Why wouldn't I want the team to concentrate?  Why is the game offering me this choice?

The whole delegating everything is stupid for the full game as people will never learn to do those things themselves as most of us are lazy and skip that 'boring stuff'. And it's not like for example that to be successful you have to attend press conferences all the time or use opposition instructions at all. Also team talks are quite straight forward and quite easy to handle with simple logical thinking. 

I think that the shouts from touchline also are quite straight forward and a good addition but again something that you don't need to use. Mainly those are for players who view matches on higher detail and keep an eye for players' body language or things that happen during matches. For example I tell my team to concentrate for example in situations where we lead by two goals or more and I notice on highlights that my team is starting to allow chances for the opposition or if a match has been dominated by us and we take the lead. Just logical shouts and for me it's super good that there isn't more comprehensive info available about how these work as this once again could turn shouts to something that people can easily exploit.

[looping]

Is Carrilero a new role?

This must be in english because in spanish, since football was created, a carrilero is a wingback. The role alredy exists in FM (Wingback=Carrilero) What on earth is a carrilero now?

Segundo volante? Mezzala? never Heard about them.

I mean, any improvement is welcome and I appreciate them, perhaps a segundo volante will be the role that will finally allow me to  completely crack the game. Who knows.

Nonetheless, disregarding from this, what I'd like to know is:

- Do strikers track back? Particularly, defensive forwards?

- Are wingers still defending wide and attacking narrow?

 

[pats]

If I ask my strikers to 'Mark specific position', will they be able to mark DMCL and DMCR positions even if the opposition is playing 2 center midfielders both at MCL and MCR positions? (To cut off the passing lanes btw) 

[apvmoreira]

15 minutes ago, pats said:

If I ask my strikers to 'Mark specific position', will they be able to mark DMCL and DMCR positions even if the opposition is playing 2 center midfielders both at MCL and MCR positions? (To cut off the passing lanes btw) 

 

25 minutes ago, looping said:

Nonetheless, disregarding from this, what I'd like to know is:

- Do strikers track back? Particularly, defensive forwards?

- Are wingers still defending wide and attacking narrow?

 

 

You can do this if you use Opposition instructions, plus adding the counter mentality.

 

I've noticed also that when i play with 2 strikers, one of them would always be a little behind the other, even with same roles, and he would contribute more to organizing the game.

[pats]

19 minutes ago, apvmoreira said:

 

 

You can do this if you use Opposition instructions, plus adding the counter mentality.

 

I've noticed also that when i play with 2 strikers, one of them would always be a little behind the other, even with same roles, and he would contribute more to organizing the game.

Opposition instruction is different. I know I can use it. I'm taking about the new 'Mark specific position' PI that's been added in FM 18. I suppose that PI is there to influence individual player defensive positioning? 

Edited October 14, 2017 by pats

[Michael Zorc]

3 hours ago, pats said:

Opposition instruction is different. I know I can use it. I'm taking about the new 'Mark specific position' PI that's been added in FM 18. I suppose that PI is there to influence individual player defensive positioning? 

You could already do that in FM17 using specific man marking. I don't see any difference apart from how it's branded, unless I'm missing something...

[yonko]

15 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

but progression from one third to another is a transition. transition is by definition, a process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another.

In football that means a transition from attack to defence and from defence to attack. So, it is a way the team organizes itself to get from one main phase to another (defence/attack/defence). I never said it is not important. Where we disagree is that you appear to believe that positional attack is somehow less important than transition. Positive transition (from defence to attack) is how teams move as a unit/organize themselves in order to get to opposition goal. 

If defending team isn't able to get into defensive position, the attacking team will get into counter attack. If you look at the table attached you will see that this happens relatively rarely and attacking transition will, in most cases, end up as positional attack. 

 

I really don't understand what you mean when you say this. Could you give me few examples of teams that don't use positional attacks? I think here is the crux of the misunderstanding we have. mainly, different definitions.

- positional attack - attack against a set up defence

- set up defence - defensive unit in their defensive shape prepared for the opposition attack

- transition - behaviour of the team when they change from attacking phase to defensive phase and reverse

- a counter attack - attack on unprepared/disorganized defence

- unprepared/disorganized defence - a defensive unit not able to get into their defensive shape in order to stop the opposition attack

We can go back and forth on the definitions. But the main point is that transitions are the most important aspect of the game, not positional attacks. If you get your attacking transition right, you don't have to rely on positional attacks that much. Most teams focus on the transitional play. That phase of the game occurs most often in games and thus carries bigger important. In addition, that is when teams are most vulnerable.

[yonko]

10 hours ago, apvmoreira said:

 

Well, IMO is where you loose the games. As a manager i know that the tactic itself does not crack defensive systems, creativity does.  When we see teams defending with 8 players and Messi pulling all those dribbles to open the vault, is manager does not influence him on that, He may give some instructions to fulfill all the potential, mas the players head does the rest.

 

On the other hand, defensive transition and even positional defense have a lot of the managers hand on it, so from a manager point of view, he needs to care more about it, than the attacking phases.

 

But all phases are important, don't take me wrong.

When a team is defending with 8 players vs Messi that is not defensive transitions. That would be an example of set defense. 

My point is that to win a game, you have to score, which means that your attack has to outplay the opponent's defense. If you only prevent your opponent from scoring, the game will end 0-0.

[Cougar2010]

4 hours ago, apvmoreira said:

 

 

You can do this if you use Opposition instructions, plus adding the counter mentality.

 

I've noticed also that when i play with 2 strikers, one of them would always be a little behind the other, even with same roles, and he would contribute more to organizing the game.

 

1 hour ago, Michael Zorc said:

You could already do that in FM17 using specific man marking. I don't see any difference apart from how it's branded, unless I'm missing something...

He is talking about marking a position that an opposition player doesn't occupy.

So if the opposition play a 442 with 2*MCs he is asking if he can mark the DMCL & DMCR positions where there aren't any players.  His intention is to block passes rather than actually mark a physical player.

[bowieinspace]

I feel like in some ways it would be nice to go back a few years, remove player roles completely and let attributes, ppm's (strong effect) and PI's (weaker affect unless it fits well with attributes/stronger weaker foot/etc) completely guide how a player plays from a set location on the pitch. Then have options to set vertical compactness/horizontal compactness in attack and defence, alongside various other TI's. How well the team then plays to those requirements would depend on the player suitability to the system and their willingness to do so (e.g. could be linked to professionalism, work rate and so forth). The player roles could still be there, in that it could provide a description for how the player tends to play, rather than being a role you assign a player to within a tactical system. 

It kinda feels like player roles combined with mentality, team shape and so forth leaves new players struggling to join the dots, and experienced players struggling to implement specific systems they want to play.

What I mean by that (as I'm sure someone will slate this) is more a general perception that the tactical creator is now quite complicated, yet changes which should be simple are extremely difficult to do and require super in depth knowledge of the tactics creator to implement

Edited October 15, 2017 by bowieinspace

[phnompenhandy]

8 hours ago, Goosewinkle said:

The worst offender IMO is the touchline talks like "concentrate!".  Why wouldn't I want the team to concentrate?  Why is the game offering me this choice?

The mere fact that it is an attribute every player has indicates that if the attribute is less than 20, the player will switch off and would benefit from a reminder. "Concentrate!" is shorthand for "Concentrate more!" or "Concentrate again".  If you've ever managed a bunch of non-league kids or Titus Bramble you'll understand perfectly.

[Goosewinkle]

9 hours ago, Scotty Walds said:

You often see a manager pointing to his head and shouting "Concentrate!" after his team has scored a crucial goal.

 

1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

The mere fact that it is an attribute every player has indicates that if the attribute is less than 20, the player will switch off and would benefit from a reminder. "Concentrate!" is shorthand for "Concentrate more!" or "Concentrate again".  If you've ever managed a bunch of non-league kids or Titus Bramble you'll understand perfectly

Right, I know what it's for, but that wasn't my point.  My point was there's no downside to clicking on "concentrate!", so there's no interesting decision to be made about whether to click it or not.  So it becomes a chore of "ok my team just scored, time to go click the concentrate button".  I think it offers no gameplay value.  

It's like having a driving game that has a button to fasten the seatbelt.  Drivers certainly do fasten seat belts, and they certainly are important.  That is not enough reason to put it in the game.

Just my opinion.  I understand that people might like the extra immersion.  But I think that FM has too many unnecessary buttons already, and the extra team tactics talks just sounds like more buttons.

(BTW I am content with press conferences and team talks as they are....but no more please!)

 

 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Goosewinkle
typo

[Michael Zorc]

4 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

 

He is talking about marking a position that an opposition player doesn't occupy.

So if the opposition play a 442 with 2*MCs he is asking if he can mark the DMCL & DMCR positions where there aren't any players.  His intention is to block passes rather than actually mark a physical player.

Does FM18 actually allow you to do this? If yes, apologies, as I must have misunderstood the feature.

Were this to actually be possible, I would buy the game as this would be a definite advance defensively!

[Cougar2010]

2 hours ago, Michael Zorc said:

Does FM18 actually allow you to do this? If yes, apologies, as I must have misunderstood the feature.

Were this to actually be possible, I would buy the game as this would be a definite advance defensively!

Thats what he is asking, can you do that in FM18.

I have no clue whether you can or can't and you would need someone from SI to confirm at this stage.

[Dagenham_Dave]

5 hours ago, Goosewinkle said:

 

Right, I know what it's for, but that wasn't my point.  My point was there's no downside to clicking on "concentrate!", so there's no interesting decision to be made about whether to click it or not.

There might be no downside to clicking it, but depending on the situation and the personality of your squad, there might be a downside to NOT clicking it. You know the old adage about teams being vulnerable just after they've scored? Can be useful then. I wish my team's manager had instructed our own team (in real life) this yesterday, wen't a goal up early against a non-league side in the cup, then totally switched off for the next 10 mins, and all of a sudden we're 2-1 down. 

[Liquid Cool]

11 hours ago, Goosewinkle said:

Right, I know what it's for, but that wasn't my point.  My point was there's no downside to clicking on "concentrate!", so there's no interesting decision to be made about whether to click it or not.  So it becomes a chore of "ok my team just scored, time to go click the concentrate button".  I think it offers no gameplay value.  

 

I guess the downside is that you can't use any other touchline shouts for a while (I don't remember how long the cooldown actually is). 

I'm not sure that's enough to be "an interesting choice". I do like the shouts, though - not so much from a rational gameplay point of view (like in an RPG where you're buffing very specific stats with a specific choice), but more for the feeling of actually being able to shout at my players during a match. 

I think it still adds to the experience, even if it turns out it's mostly placebo. 

[Goosewinkle]

5 hours ago, Liquid Cool said:

I'm not sure that's enough to be "an interesting choice". I do like the shouts, though - not so much from a rational gameplay point of view (like in an RPG where you're buffing very specific stats with a specific choice), but more for the feeling of actually being able to shout at my players during a match.

Yes!  Ok good, someone gets what I'm saying.  I get what you're saying too, about the shouts creating immersion.

[Danchinaski]

12 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

There might be no downside to clicking it, but depending on the situation and the personality of your squad, there might be a downside to NOT clicking it. You know the old adage about teams being vulnerable just after they've scored? Can be useful then. I wish my team's manager had instructed our own team (in real life) this yesterday, wen't a goal up early against a non-league side in the cup, then totally switched off for the next 10 mins, and all of a sudden we're 2-1 down. 

I'd add to this by saying screaming at individual players has yielded positive responses in my experience; on a fair few occasions I've aggressively demanded more of a mercurial striker and he's pulled something out in return. This may not be a direct result of the shout in itself, but it definitely feels satisfying when it happens.

[Liquid Cool]

1 hour ago, Goosewinkle said:

Yes!  Ok good, someone gets what I'm saying.  I get what you're saying too, about the shouts creating immersion.

I read somewhere, years ago, that SI are deliberately obscuring certain parts of the cause/effect parts of the game. And I get why they're doing it; football is not just a rational game of chess, there's a lot of elements of the sport that are irrational and illogical. 

If everything was broken down into numbers, and e.g. a touchline shout would be a choice of gaining +2 in X at the cost of -2 in Y, then it'd just become a very mechanical affair of min/max'ing and pressing the right buttons at the right time. And then you'd lose that whole suspension of disbelief thing that's probably the most important part of FM. the game will never be able to give a 100% realistic version of the football world, but if it can sell the illusion of realism, then that's all that matters. 

That said, I think there's room for improvement in making some of the cause/effect relationships clearer. Not as numbers, but in football terms.  

Edited October 15, 2017 by Liquid Cool

[qwerty22]

SI could hit the jackpot by integrating tactics and training in a way that would address all these concerns.

You go into the tactical training set up for example and run a session using your designed tactic and see for yourself how your team is positioned, how they move, press and cover. A bit like a live wibble wobble but through an actual visual training session, You could then add your own touches with instructions to the players and assistant feedback. 

This way the manager has done his work on the training pitch and will have more control and understanding of all these generic roles that actually look identical once you look at the match engine.

 

 

[themadsheep2001]

8 minutes ago, qwerty22 said:

SI could hit the jackpot by integrating tactics and training in a way that would address all these concerns.

You go into the tactical training set up for example and run a session using your designed tactic and see for yourself how your team is positioned, how they move, press and cover. A bit like a live wibble wobble but through an actual visual training session, You could then add your own touches with instructions to the players and assistant feedback. 

This way the manager has done his work on the training pitch and will have more control and understanding of all these generic roles that actually look identical once you look at the match engine.

 

 

That wouldn't show you anything you wouldn't see in a match, probably less so because it's showing in isolation whereas defensive transitions are dynamic and in relation to the opposition shape and style. The best way, though still difficult, is to implement all 4 phases into the tactics creator visually and transparently. That hopefully has to be the ultimate goal. 

[Goosewinkle]

1 hour ago, Liquid Cool said:

If everything was broken down into numbers, and e.g. a touchline shout would be a choice of gaining +2 in X at the cost of -2 in Y, then it'd just become a very mechanical affair of min/max'ing and pressing the right buttons at the right time. And then you'd lose that whole suspension of disbelief thing that's probably the most important part of FM.

I agree, I don't want that either.   

[phnompenhandy]

20 hours ago, Goosewinkle said:

 

Right, I know what it's for, but that wasn't my point.  My point was there's no downside to clicking on "concentrate!", so there's no interesting decision to be made about whether to click it or not.  So it becomes a chore of "ok my team just scored, time to go click the concentrate button".  I think it offers no gameplay value.  

It's like having a driving game that has a button to fasten the seatbelt.  Drivers certainly do fasten seat belts, and they certainly are important.  That is not enough reason to put it in the game.

Just my opinion.  I understand that people might like the extra immersion.  But I think that FM has too many unnecessary buttons already, and the extra team tactics talks just sounds like more buttons.

(BTW I am content with press conferences and team talks as they are....but no more please!)

 

 

The downside is you can't shout something else. I often find after I've done a 'shout' I'm frustrated at having to wait so long to give a different instruction. It's a perfectly commonplace sight to see real managers frantically shouting all sorts from their technical area at the end of a close match.

[bowieinspace]

2 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

The downside is you can't shout something else. I often find after I've done a 'shout' I'm frustrated at having to wait so long to give a different instruction. It's a perfectly commonplace sight to see real managers frantically shouting all sorts from their technical area at the end of a close match.

How about an option to shout at the officials as well. Would love to have a go at the 4th official, have Mourinho come off the other bench to get involved and it all to end with hand bags to try to fire the team up/a fine from the governing body 

[pablito15]

1. The "sign in with steam" option doesn't work well.

2. You have little interest in updating the match engine, which is why we're still locked in to predefined 'player roles', can't edit set pieces in any detail etc etc. Makes it too unpredictable / means you actually have to update the ME. 

3. The tactics update is basically a new skin and a couple of new player roles. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by pablito15

[RTHerringbone]

Wrong, and disrespectful. 

[XaW]

18 minutes ago, pablito15 said:

1. The "sign in with steam" option doesn't work well.

2. You have little interest in updating the match engine, which is why we're still locked in to predefined 'player roles', can't edit set pieces in any detail etc etc. Makes it too unpredictable / means you actually have to update the ME. 

3. The tactics update is basically a new skin and a couple of new player roles. 

1. What? Sign in? Please elaborate.

2. We haven't seen anything regarding it, except a few seconds of a clip. I'm guessing it will get it's own video.

3. It feels like much more than that to me, but we'll see when we get to try it.

[Yankee112DK]

The pre-game instructions are a bit unclear to me. Is it just pre-game "shouts" or is it actually a mechanic where you have to prioritize the tactical message to your squad?

Real life coaches have two sets of tactical instructions - 1) the general game-plan which is coached in depth and width during training and 2) 2-3 focus areas for each game, which are then by definition prioritized over others. You cannot have a tactical meeting with 19 different instructions - you will always emphasize two or three key aspects which the players will then have clearest in mind while also knowing the game-plan from 1).

Furthermore it's very disappointing that FM gives no options to model your pressing. It's just a 1-5 scale, which is an extreme simplification and a stark contrast to the rest of the game. Similarly, you cannot give separate instructions for the transitional phase, which is a big miss. The same goes for marking, which is grossly oversimplified in-game.

And why is there no option to prepare and practice certain offensive openings like there is with set pieces? This is a big part of certain managers - especially those who prefer more rigid and prepared styles over the "freedom"-oriented coaches. It would be very interesting to choose and possibly tweak some attacking openings and see your players perform them on pitch.

It's baffling how the game has 7 different names for a defensive midfielder, but no way to precisely instruct your team on how to mark, press and counter-attack.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Yankee112DK

[apvmoreira]

On 15/10/2017 at 04:46, Goosewinkle said:

 

Right, I know what it's for, but that wasn't my point.  My point was there's no downside to clicking on "concentrate!", so there's no interesting decision to be made about whether to click it or not.  So it becomes a chore of "ok my team just scored, time to go click the concentrate button".  I think it offers no gameplay value.  

It's like having a driving game that has a button to fasten the seatbelt.  Drivers certainly do fasten seat belts, and they certainly are important.  That is not enough reason to put it in the game.

Just my opinion.  I understand that people might like the extra immersion.  But I think that FM has too many unnecessary buttons already, and the extra team tactics talks just sounds like more buttons.

(BTW I am content with press conferences and team talks as they are....but no more please!)

 

 

And when you have a nervous player, you spend all game asking him to be more calm, you do the same at half-time and nothing happens? I mean, i've never had a player that was calmed after i told him calmly to be calm, for 90 minutes!!

[apvmoreira]

13 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

The downside is you can't shout something else. I often find after I've done a 'shout' I'm frustrated at having to wait so long to give a different instruction. It's a perfectly commonplace sight to see real managers frantically shouting all sorts from their technical area at the end of a close match.

Try to see a game of Sporting Lisbon coach, Jorge Jesus!! You'll get tired!!

[kandersson]

5 hours ago, Yankee112DK said:

The pre-game instructions are a bit unclear to me. Is it just pre-game "shouts" or is it actually a mechanic where you have to prioritize the tactical message to your squad?

Real life coaches have two sets of tactical instructions - 1) the general game-plan which is coached in depth and width during training and 2) 2-3 focus areas for each game, which are then by definition prioritized over others. You cannot have a tactical meeting with 19 different instructions - you will always emphasize two or three key aspects which the players will then have clearest in mind while also knowing the game-plan from 1).

Furthermore it's very disappointing that FM gives no options to model your pressing. It's just a 1-5 scale, which is an extreme simplification and a stark contrast to the rest of the game. Similarly, you cannot give separate instructions for the transitional phase, which is a big miss. The same goes for marking, which is grossly oversimplified in-game.

And why is there no option to prepare and practice certain offensive openings like there is with set pieces? This is a big part of certain managers - especially those who prefer more rigid and prepared styles over the "freedom"-oriented coaches. It would be very interesting to choose and possibly tweak some attacking openings and see your players perform them on pitch.

It's baffling how the game has 7 different names for a defensive midfielder, but no way to precisely instruct your team on how to mark, press and counter-attack.

One thing that has always baffled be in FM is the presence of individual pressing instructions (close down less/close down more). Pressing should only be a team instruction imo (I agree we could really use more specific types of pressing for different phases or areas of the pitch), a single player closing down more (on who? when? where?) even if it's a BWM doesn't make much sense to me and all my managers would have shouted at me and benched me if I consistently went pressing on my own 

Edited October 16, 2017 by kandersson

[ferrarinseb]

5 hours ago, Yankee112DK said:

The pre-game instructions are a bit unclear to me. Is it just pre-game "shouts" or is it actually a mechanic where you have to prioritize the tactical message to your squad?

Real life coaches have two sets of tactical instructions - 1) the general game-plan which is coached in depth and width during training and 2) 2-3 focus areas for each game, which are then by definition prioritized over others. You cannot have a tactical meeting with 19 different instructions - you will always emphasize two or three key aspects which the players will then have clearest in mind while also knowing the game-plan from 1).

Furthermore it's very disappointing that FM gives no options to model your pressing. It's just a 1-5 scale, which is an extreme simplification and a stark contrast to the rest of the game. Similarly, you cannot give separate instructions for the transitional phase, which is a big miss. The same goes for marking, which is grossly oversimplified in-game.

And why is there no option to prepare and practice certain offensive openings like there is with set pieces? This is a big part of certain managers - especially those who prefer more rigid and prepared styles over the "freedom"-oriented coaches. It would be very interesting to choose and possibly tweak some attacking openings and see your players perform them on pitch.

It's baffling how the game has 7 different names for a defensive midfielder, but no way to precisely instruct your team on how to mark, press and counter-attack.

This last one sums up 

[westy8chimp]

23 minutes ago, kandersson said:

One thing that has always baffled be in FM is the presence of individual pressing instructions (close down less/close down more). Pressing should only be a team instruction imo (I agree we could really use more specific types of pressing for different phases or areas of the pitch), a single player closing down more (on who? when? where?) even if it's a BWM doesn't make much sense to me and all my managers would have shouted at me and benched me if I consistently went pressing on my own 

Kandersson I want you to press sometimes. Kapiche?

Edited October 16, 2017 by westy8chimp

[Spurs08]

1 hour ago, apvmoreira said:

And when you have a nervous player, you spend all game asking him to be more calm, you do the same at half-time and nothing happens? I mean, i've never had a player that was calmed after i told him calmly to be calm, for 90 minutes!!

If you were giving a major presentation and were visibly nervous, I'm pretty sure some twit in your earpiece going "calm down" over and over again wouldn't fix things. Those kind of tools can be helpful, particularly at team talks, but they can't always fix a situation and spamming the option certainly won't help. Instead, you need to look into why he's nervous. Did you put pressure on before hand, whether in a team-talk, individual interaction or in the media? Make a note of it and be more careful next time. Does he have a poor personality? Make sure you've tutored him. Was he put under pressure by the opposition manager? Think about whether he's in the right frame of mind to play. By the time the match has started and you realise he's nervous, it's too late for 80% of what you can do to mitigate it.