Game 7: Serbia vs England from the Arena AufSchalke LIVE on BBC1 8pm

[ham_aka_stam]

I agree, I think those moments when we need a counter threat it used to be that Rashford would push on and move more centrally whilst Kane dropped deep.

The thinking was either to allow Foden to play himself into confidence/form, or to increase ball retention rather than encourage route-one balls (which Foden was helping to reduce by providing an additional midfield outlet when the ball was deep).

[Barry Cartman]

this was the prime example of Bellingham just getting involved in his own duels 

 

[Pukey]

I feel like that tweeter is assuming if Bellingham plays that pass Foden would definitely score which is very clearly not the case, it would still be a pretty low percentage opportunity. 

[Bigwig]

15 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I feel like that tweeter is assuming if Bellingham plays that pass Foden would definitely score which is very clearly not the case, it would still be a pretty low percentage opportunity. 

But it’s his trademark finish. 

[enigmatic]

11 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I feel like that tweeter is assuming if Bellingham plays that pass Foden would definitely score which is very clearly not the case, it would still be a pretty low percentage opportunity. 

Yeah.

Tbf Foden playing for Man City probably makes scoring from there look easy (after making a run to show for the ball rather than just waving his arms) but he made a mess of two better opportunities last night whilst England were well on top. Given the tempo we were playing at and his apparent lack of confidence, I reckon that he probably takes a touch and passes it sideways instead if he gets the ball so Bellingham's showboating probably more direct.

[Bootador]

47 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

this was the prime example of Bellingham just getting involved in his own duels 

 

Just Kane, Trent and Foden on the edge of the box waiting for a ball back... but he crosses it into... Saka?

[Barry Cartman]

36 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I feel like that tweeter is assuming if Bellingham plays that pass Foden would definitely score which is very clearly not the case, it would still be a pretty low percentage opportunity. 

Well yeah ignore the tweet itself, just the video they posted is the example being talked about with Bellingham wanting to do everything on his own 

[TalkSport]

People will defend Jude regardless, but when there's four players on the edge of the box, to not play a simple pass to move that ball quicker is poor. Doesn't matter overall for match, but it's minor details that need improving as tournament goes on.

Sort of thing people have in past slammed likes of Neymar/Mbappe etc. for when they've done similar.

[enigmatic]

5 hours ago, Haguey said:

Obviously doesn't mean anything really but we've seen teams look super impressive in group stages and early knockouts before, and fail to make it deep into a tournament. Netherlands 2008 and Spain/Portugal at the last World Cup spring to mind.

Navigating a tournament is tough, even if you are very good and teams rarely win every single match within 90 mins.

And the side that actually wins the tournament often looks sluggish in the group stages, with Portugal 2016 being the most extreme example. Don't think you can really take much out of it other than we did enough to win without ever looking fluent and Serbia were better at trying to play football than focusing on kicking us...

Hard to tell at this stage how much of the first half was Serbia being ****ing awful rather than us being in control and how much of the second half was us shutting down actual threat rather than us losing control, but you'd expect the game to look completely different against a more ambitious side anyway.

 

3 hours ago, m_fenton said:

On the other hand (England's Euros opening matches):

Stop ruining the GaReTH Is HoldInG Us BaCk narrative. We're a famously great tournament side noted for blowing our opponents away, dammit.

[skybluedave]

So Man City fans gonna spend this tournament digging out Bellingham. And everyone else Foden. Can't wait

[profii]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c90029zj9ddo

which one of you is an england player and took werewolf to the squad

[The_jagster]

7 minutes ago, profii said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c90029zj9ddo

which one of you is an england player and took werewolf to the squad

This was a thing last tournament too, Luke Shaw was talking about it

[sjg11]

6 hours ago, m_fenton said:

On the other hand (England's Euros opening matches):

With the exception of the Keegan team we might be the dullest international team!

[Heartwork]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c0jjy31pv1po

Serbia under investigation for racism towards England players, items thrown onto the pitch, and displaying racist symbols towards Kosovo.

[Weezer]

Racism is like a national sport for Serbia.

[Constantine]

Sure, condemn us all...

[InigoPatinkin]

Not a fan of Mainoo doing a conference before the second game, the guy is a kid and needs a bit of sheltering. 

[kopsy101]

15 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Not a fan of Mainoo doing a conference before the second game, the guy is a kid and needs a bit of sheltering. 

Kid has no fear, I respect that

[Heartwork]

4 hours ago, Weezer said:

Racism is like a national sport for Serbia.

Former Yugoslav nation of Slovenia next. Definitely see no issues with that.

[InigoPatinkin]

8 hours ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Not a fan of Mainoo doing a conference before the second game, the guy is a kid and needs a bit of sheltering. 

 And stuff like this is why... asking the kid who represented England at every level from 17 upwards about his allegiance at his first major tournament ffs. He handled it well but England and United need to be a better job of getting him away from that gutter. 

[Bliss Seeker]

yea I felt uncomfortable listening to that.

Some people would defend it by saying they'd ask the same question to Rice about his decision to pick England over Ireland, but questioning someone from a minority group about their allegiance when they're sitting in front of you representing England is just typical brain-dead racist British journalism. Some of them just don't see black players as equal, we know that, there's a mountain of evidence to showcase that - and questions like that are designed to get a "MAINOO: HOW I ALMOST CHOSE GHANA INSTEAD OF ENGLAND" headline to beat him with. 

Mainoo handled it really well, but why even bring it up? 

[Heartwork]

I mean I'm fascinated by the idea of dual nationality in football - especially when it comes to smaller nations who could benefit hugely by getting a top level player to play for them - but once they've made their choice that should be end of discussion. He's an England player, that's not going to change no matter how much the press try to make him regret it.

[titchuk]

17 hours ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Not a fan of Mainoo doing a conference before the second game, the guy is a kid and needs a bit of sheltering. 

I thought that too initially but then wondered if they've assigned a day to each player (26 players and there must be about 26 days if we go far?) so having him do it early is about as sheltered as you can? Just a guess though.

[metal_guitarist]

England have a habit of throwing inexperienced players in front of the camera for the media to pick apart. Did exactly the same with Greenwood on his first call up when he'd done virtually no press at all for Utd beforehand. Club weren't very happy about it and I doubt they will be at this as well.

[Rob1981]

3 minutes ago, titchuk said:

I thought that too initially but then wondered if they've assigned a day to each player (26 players and there must be about 26 days if we go far?) so having him do it early is about as sheltered as you can? Just a guess though.

Exactly this. They rotate the players so they nearly all get a slot or two in front of the camera at some point during the month.

Give Mainoo the slot straight after a win, when we have one foot in the KO stage already and nobody is going to ask any difficult questions. Then you’re keeping the older wiser heads back. And you can use them when we’ve drawn 0-0 against Slovenia, or when we’re preparing to face Germany in the KOs and a journo is trying to put words in a player’s mouth.

Same old Gareth though, famously not protecting his young players.

[Constantine]

14 hours ago, Heartwork said:

Former Yugoslav nation of Slovenia next. Definitely see no issues with that.

Nah, we have no beef with Slovenians. Can't say that for everyone, we're not a monolith but overall vibe is fine.

Also, I'm tired of this ****. Sure, it's alright to brand an entire nation of people as racist savages. While I agree there are some problems... Come on. Don't do this sort of crap. I can say all sort of things about every nation present here as we all have our own groups of nutjobs and lunatics to deal with but I don't want to start whatabout-ing BS...

[Rob1981]

Have to say, all this “my club’s player is being treated unfairly by England” is a bit embarrassing.

Do you think they plan these media calls on the fly? There is an interview schedule drafted days in advance, and then they will have different scenarios which they can switch between depending on results, and depending on which players have played.

If you use the junior players when the mood is good then you don’t have to throw them to the wolves later. And maybe sending Mainoo out yesterday is actually a calculated move in terms of keeping him in as positive a frame of mind as possible. Didn’t get to start when people thought he might have done… only got five minutes off the bench because we never got the second goal to kill the game. So you put him front and centre for the media in the run up to game #2 so he doesn’t start worrying that he’s not going to be involved much.

There are a hundred things like this going on in an international camp which can impact the morale and the mindset. And ultimately might make the difference between winning and losing. But not if you don’t think about them and not if you don’t plan all the off the pitch stuff down to the tiniest detail. This is Gareth’s greatest strength. And it’s because it’s so important that folk give him a pass when he doesn’t get everything right on the pitch.

And as for him not protecting Greenwood… Don’t make me laugh   Greenwood’s position in the squad became untenable because there is overwhelming evidence that he committed a violent sexual assault. And before that, he had already broken a curfew and breached Covid protocols while on England duty. Yet Southgate has never publicly criticised him, or ruled out picking him again… even when he’s been repeatedly goaded into doing so.

[InigoPatinkin]

'They planned this bad idea meticulously' isn't the defence you think it is. England aren't contractually obligated to force every player to do one solo press conference per day (and they haven't so far anyway, so it's total nonsense). They could just not have done it at all and sent out Harry Kane twice. What's the point of having the man with the most boring voice in human history in the squad if you're not going to bore the press to death with him? 

Trying to turn it into some weird attack on Southgate so you can jump on the grenade is bizarre behaviour. I'd be extremely surprised if he's actively involved in deciding who does press days, the FA have a press officer who sorts all this stuff out. 

You're also straw-maning the absolute hell out of the Greenwood point. Regardless of what came out later, a players first major press piece shouldn't be done on your first England call up. It's negligence. 

[Rob1981]

FFS   They don't send Harry Kane out twice because they want to involve other players as much as possible.

Gareth's biggest achievement has been building the club culture.  You do this by making everyone feel they are an equal part of what is going on, even those players that haven't got on the pitch.  So if you have a young player who might be frustrated that they didn't play... position them for the press as a key player ahead of the next game.  It's not rocket science, but neither does it happen by accident.  Like they also had Ivan Toney doing a load of stuff on the FA's YouTube channel yesterday.

And yep, some journalists are unpleasant.  Who knew.  But the press officer you mention has probably briefed Mainoo about what he might get asked, and they might have even rehearsed answers about the Ghana question.  It won't be the first time he's been asked.  Sending him out with some prep is better than wrapping him up in cotton wool and having him worry that some other player is a more important member of the squad if they do the media call instead.

Dunno.  I'm sure I would feel different if I had a vested interest in one of the clubs.

And I have to say... Day 6... and the biggest argument we can manage is "Were they right to send Player X for the press interview?" 

This is the stuff of dreams compared to previous tournaments

Edited June 19 by Rob1981

[The_jagster]

34 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Have to say, all this “my club’s player is being treated unfairly by England” is a bit embarrassing.

 

Amen to this.

[Tony85]

29 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

'They planned this bad idea meticulously' isn't the defence you think it is. England aren't contractually obligated to force every player to do one solo press conference per day (and they haven't so far anyway, so it's total nonsense). They could just not have done it at all and sent out Harry Kane twice. What's the point of having the man with the most boring voice in human history in the squad if you're not going to bore the press to death with him? 

Trying to turn it into some weird attack on Southgate so you can jump on the grenade is bizarre behaviour. I'd be extremely surprised if he's actively involved in deciding who does press days, the FA have a press officer who sorts all this stuff out. 

You're also straw-maning the absolute hell out of the Greenwood point. Regardless of what came out later, a players first major press piece shouldn't be done on your first England call up. It's negligence. 

I think that's what you've just done with the Greenwood first cap press conference point. Don't see a problem with them appearing in the press conference. People want to know how they feel about a pretty significant moment of their career. Same way players meet the press when they sign for a new club. If you are saying they aren't ready for a few questions from the press which let's be honest are going to be pretty tame compared to the vile stuff they could end up writing about them based on their personal lives then they probably aren't ready or mature enough to be dealing with the pressures of international football so shouldn't be called up in the first place.

And in Mainoo's case - it's not like he's been thrown in front of the press after a bad result or before a high pressure upcoming game. Other than before the tournament it's probably the most gentle time for him to be there.

Edited June 19 by Tony85

[InigoPatinkin]

You're still just arguing that they thought it was a good idea. Do you think Mainoo is going to feel ostricised from the squad because he does a YouTube interview with a handler over a full press conference with journalists from every **** rag in the country? How is that logical? It was the same thing they did with Wharton just before the tournament started, it's totally unnecessary. 

If they know he's going to get borderline racist questions about his loyalty then that's even less reason to do it. 

And I think the bigger issue if you're an England supporter is creating about 3 half chances in 90 minutes in the first game and having no attacking threat on one side of the pitch. 

Edited June 19 by InigoPatinkin

[InigoPatinkin]

7 minutes ago, Tony85 said:

I think that's what you've just done with the Greenwood first cap press conference point. Don't see a problem with them appearing in the press conference. People want to know how they feel about a pretty significant moment of their career. Same way players meet the press when they sign for a new club. If you are saying they aren't ready for a few questions from the press which let's be honest are going to be pretty tame compared to the vile stuff they could end up writing about them based on their personal lives then they probably aren't ready or mature enough to be dealing with the pressures of international football so shouldn't be called up in the first place.

And in Mainoo's case - it's not like he's been thrown in front of the press after a bad result. Other than before the tournament it's probably the most gentle time for him to be there.

How can I straw man something that I didn't mention until after Rob had replied to the person who did mention it ? That's not how time (or indeed straw men) work. 

And it's a fallacy that you need to do all the press stuff if you're called up for England. You can be ready to play football and it still be unhealthy for that level of media exposure. Just because people want to know doesn't mean you need to indulge them. Mainoo being borderline not ready for internationals in footballing terms and probably only in because we've got no depth there is a reason to protect him further. 

Edited June 19 by InigoPatinkin

[Rob1981]

16 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

It was the same thing they did with Wharton just before the tournament started

Because they also want to make sure Wharton feels part of the squad

**** me.

What time does the Croatia game start?

[InigoPatinkin]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

Because they also want to make sure Wharton feels part of the squad

**** me.

What time does the Croatia game start?

I'm sorry Rob but I'm just not turned by your argument that the only way to make someone feel part of the England squad involves having them attend a press conference get them to play a game of Jenga with Kieran Trippier or something. 

[m_fenton]

2 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I'm sorry Rob but I'm just not turned by your argument that the only way to make someone feel part of the England squad involves having them attend a press conference get them to play a game of Jenga with Kieran Trippier or something. 

I think the point might be that this sort of thing is one of Southgate's strengths - so if there's no harm done it's probably safe to assume it wasn't a bad decision.

[arenaross]

Do players want to do press conferences? I dunno. If it was me I'd be quite happy to let Harry Kane do every single one and I'll get back to playing Werewolf with Big Jude to keep me feeling part of the squad. 

[InigoPatinkin]

1 minute ago, m_fenton said:

I think the point might be that this sort of thing is one of Southgate's strengths - so if there's no harm done it's probably safe to assume it wasn't a bad decision.

You can also make mistakes in things that are your strength. I'd argue having a kid being asked about how loyal he is to his country at a press conference at a major tournament is pretty poor from all involved. 

I'm with arenaross on this one, let Harry do all the interviews and have Gizzy responsible for team building. 

[arenaross]

Gizzy team building services

 

[InigoPatinkin]

I'm still sad I never got to use the cards he sent me for the 'organised fun' section of a meeting I was chairing they were genuinely quite good! 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

47 minutes ago, arenaross said:

Do players want to do press conferences? I dunno. If it was me I'd be quite happy to let Harry Kane do every single one and I'll get back to playing Werewolf with Big Jude to keep me feeling part of the squad. 

These lads get so much media training now, think these conferences are just water off a ducks back to them.

The Utd lads in here will know more than me about Mainoo, I wasn't aware of the possibility of him playing for another country at all so to bring it up in the conference like that and then be quite pushy with the second question is a bit weird (at best) from the journalist. 

[enigmatic]

Would have thought they'd have pre-briefed the questions to the extent possible, but I think the general expectation when you put out a teenager pre-match having won the opening game is that they get softball questions like "how are you enjoying your first tournament" and "are the lads optimistic" not grilled over tactics or Gareth's future or why did they miss that penalty. Don't think that's the toughest part of tournament pressure to handle, but yeah, some journals are more interested in controversy-bait than others

Edited June 19 by enigmatic

[Haguey]

I would worry if he couldn't handle a softball media interview that maybe he isn't ready to represent his country at a tournament. Fortunately he did well so there is no issue.

[Rob1981]

Of course there’s no issue @Haguey. Manager builds squad culture by making all the players look equally important. And even better: if you wheel out your junior players for vanilla interviews now when the tournament is only just getting going, then you can protect them from difficult interviews later.

Most of the same people would be critical if he had done literally anything else.

[ham_aka_stam]

29 minutes ago, Haguey said:

I would worry if he couldn't handle a softball media interview that maybe he isn't ready to represent his country at a tournament. Fortunately he did well so there is no issue.

It's not handling the interview in isolation is it?  It's being misquoted and dragged through the press afterwards.

- "Mainoo considered playing for Ghana"

- *England lose/get knocked out*

- "Would this have happened if Mainoo had been more committed to the cause?"

Don't get me wrong, I expect this was all discussed, and planned for, but it doesn't look great when some media twit tried to corner him.

[eenie]

Sadly, I think if you're going to put young black England players in front of the media on their own then you need to be prepared for shithousery, because let's be brutally honest here the media treat black English players much less kindly than their white counterparts.

[themadsheep2001]

Just to clear up a few things. Whoever does the press conference (outside of your captains etc) is usually combination of requests by the press, and who England have decided to put up in response to said requests, equally they dont put up players who dont want to do it, though most players do it because they accept its part of the game. Press conference duties in tournaments are rarely anything to do with squad building, and more to do with a combination of sharing the load/dealing with requests. There was nothing stopping them sending out Kane again. 

They also dont always have to say what they are going to ask. There might be areas that might be off limits, but there's nothing to stop them from being asked. But clubs and FAs have long memories, and they have no problems barring you if you cross any of their lines

In this case, England probably shouldn't have sent Mainoo up, but then they may not have known about such a question, but he handed it brilliantly. The journalist was a bit of a ****, and i expect they will get some sharp words if Mainoo isnt happy 

[Rob1981]

Should send him on with Kelly Somers tomorrow. 10 minutes where she flirts with him he just gets to talk about how great he is. A Somers interview is like a party political broadcast.

 

[The_jagster]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Should send him on with Kelly Somers tomorrow. 10 minutes where she flirts with him he just gets to talk about how great he is. A Somers interview is like a party political broadcast.

 

That's mostly just because she is the England Camp person which is the worst for this, because you cant risk annoying anyone as you need the access.

But I do wonder if the journalists doing it think they have to work hard to get to this position which is fairly high in the TV world as a non-former footballer yet despair at having to leave any journalistic principles at the door of the camp.

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, The_jagster said:

That's mostly just because she is the England Camp person which is the worst for this, because you cant risk annoying anyone as you need the access.

It’s not just the England gig though, she is the same interviewing players at club level. Has that same starry-eyed vibe that Jake Humphrey, where she is trying too hard to be mates and comes across like she is grateful just to be in the room with them. And of course, the fact that she is a woman absolutely shouldn’t matter. But something makes her seem even more sycophantic than Humphrey. I don’t if it’s that, but if it isn’t I can’t put my finger on what else it is.

I get that you need to protect the access to the players, but that doesn’t mean you can’t ask them ANYTHING that they might find difficult to answer. You don't have to sell out completely. There are plenty of folk in the media, both male and female, that seem to find a much better balance.